Ink and Flame Episode #7
Cat Sirota: Author of Forgiving Darkness

You can listen to Ink & Flame on Apple Podcasts, Amazon Podcasts, and pretty much every major platform you can think of—it’s everywhere your ears want it to be! Prefer visuals with your storytelling? We’ve got you covered with full video episodes available on Candlelore's YouTube channel. Wherever you like to tune in, the magic awaits!

Transcription

Tina Koutras (00:00)
Hi and welcome to Ink and Flame. I'm your host, Tina Koutras, and today we're sitting down with Cat Sirota to talk about her book, The Forgiving Darkness. Hi Cat, how are you?

Cat Sirota (00:10)
Hey Tina, nice to meet you and thanks for having me. It's so great to be here.

Tina Koutras (00:14)
I'm so excited to chat with you. Your book got my attention very quickly.

Cat Sirota (00:18)
I'm so pleased to hear it.

Tina Koutras (00:20)
So do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself, about your journey to becoming an author?

Cat Sirota (00:24)
Yeah, sounds good. So I'm probably a bit of a late bloomer when it comes to being an author. So I'm almost kind of in my, well, I'm almost 40. I'm 40 next year. And so I actually only really decided I want to pursue a writing career maybe about five or six years ago. When I kind of was a bit jaded in the

in the corporate world and I was like, I do not want to do this anymore. I want to do something way more fun, way more creative. And so that's kind of where my journey began, I suppose, from a career perspective. But I've always kind of dabbled in writing, like when I was younger and, you know, always kind of played around with it, but never kind of took it as a serious career until I kind of had seen the corporate life and I was like, no, don't want to be doing this anymore. I'm out of here. so.

So that's the dream, that's the dream is to leave the corporate world full time and kind of pursue a writing career full time. It'll take a bit of time to get there, but that's kind of where it all started, I should say.

Tina Koutras (01:25)
That's awesome. And so you moved to New Zealand or Middle Earth, as you call it, at a young age. How has the landscape there influenced your imagination and writing style?

Cat Sirota (01:35)
Oh my gosh, that's a great question. mean, yeah, New Zealand is so, I suppose, famous for like Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, know, all of those kind of the big sweeping landscapes. And it's quite interesting because you don't actually appreciate it until you start actually thinking about writing it and drawing inspiration on it. Like you just kind of coast through going, oh yeah, we live in this great place, all that sort of stuff. But it was on a flight from...

Tina Koutras (01:42)
Mm-hmm.

Cat Sirota (02:00)
Wellington to Queenstown to visit my brother and we were flying over the the southern Alps I've actually got a video from I think you posted on one of my socials But just this sheer kind of yeah amazing kind of landscape of these, big kind of range of the mountains with snowcaps on it and It kind of really inspired me to go Wow that could be a really cool backdrop for a story and I sort of took inspiration from that in one of the settings in Forgiving Darkness called Nordia

which is kind of a hybrid of Norse, you know, inspiration taken from like Norse mythology and then the South Island landscapes of New Zealand.

Tina Koutras (02:36)
wow, beautiful. I'm gonna have to creep your profile a little bit to see those pictures, I think. So what drew you to the fantasy and romance genres in general?

Cat Sirota (02:47)
Yeah, I went out, I suppose throughout most of my life, other than like the Harry Potter books and stuff when you're growing up, like I read those when I was younger. But actually, I read a lot of crime thriller through most of through most of my sort of I suppose, when I was reading and stuff, I actually really gravitated towards historical crime thrillers in crime thrillers. And then I started actually working for Amazon, funnily enough.

Tina Koutras (02:57)
Hmm.

Cat Sirota (03:10)
And I, it's, I mean, it's a great company to work for, but man, it's stressful. And so I needed to, I wasn't kind of sleeping at night because I was just so stressed all the time. So I kind of started reading fantasy because crime thrillers, was like, no, this is too close to, too close to reality. I need something to completely escape. So I started reading fantasy and started out with George R. Martin, Raymond E. Feist.

Tina Koutras (03:26)
Yeah.

Cat Sirota (03:34)
You know, all the big epic kind of fantasy tales and then slowly gravitated towards Sarah J Maas and everyone else and it was through the escapism that I really fell in love with the genre.

Tina Koutras (03:43)
Yeah, that's very similar. that's where I started too, was Georgia R. Martin and Robin Hobb and some of the epic fantasies. then...

Cat Sirota (03:45)
Yeah.

Yes!

Yeah, yeah, and I

still like to read them, but I definitely prefer the romantic element now.

Tina Koutras (03:55)
Yeah, we all need that kind of escapism every now and again. So how did that passion blossom to storytelling for you?

Cat Sirota (03:57)
Yeah, right.

Well, I think I just because I was because basically, you know, when I was working for Amazon, you know, I couldn't I couldn't watch TV because I'd somehow gravitate towards TV. I gravitate towards my laptop on my phone and answering emails and stuff. And so I started to read and read and read and read and read. And then I ended up I think I think one year I read like something like hundred and seventy nine books. And I was like, wow, yeah, you read a lot of books.

Tina Koutras (04:28)
Wild.

Cat Sirota (04:32)
maybe you should try writing one just you know, it's a bit of a it's a bit of a passion, I guess at that point in time. And then I had a go really enjoyed it did a couple of writing courses, really enjoyed it. And I was like, well, I think I want to give this a proper go and lo and behold, here we are.

Tina Koutras (04:47)
That's awesome. so what type of, aside from George R.R. Martin, did you have any additional authors that kind of really made you feel like, okay, I can do this?

Cat Sirota (04:52)
Mm.

I think for, I mean, the Queen Sarah J. Maas is probably one, know, someone that I completely idolize. And I'm just like, oh my God, I'd love to write like her one day, right? One day. And I think, I think the things that I liked about Sarah J. Maas was, I suppose, her variety that really got me into thinking about, you know, the possibility of writing. Because you think about Throne a glass, you know, that's such a YA kind of concept. And then,

Tina Koutras (05:04)
Yeah.

Yep.

Cat Sirota (05:25)
Court of Thorns and Roses, starts off very wide, but then progresses to very... And now you've got Crescent City, which is very adult, right? So she's kind of been like a bit of a shining star of, you know, the possibility of what if. I know obviously she's been writing since she was 16 years old, if not earlier. So like I said, I'm a bit of a late bloomer, but the hope is that one day I can have, you know, kind of multiple series and multiple, I suppose, categories and everything as well. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (05:28)
Not so young adults.

Yeah, and

to be able to capture such different dynamics is really a goal, So your book, Forgiving Darkness, has been highly rated by readers. For those unfamiliar, how would you describe the story and the central themes of it?

Cat Sirota (05:58)
It's amazing, right? Yeah.

Yeah, so the story in the central themes, I would say it's kind of a, it's a story of redemption. And it's, you know, it's about a dark witch who I suppose is facing the trauma of her past, but also is trying to redeem herself so that she can live with her own, I suppose, past trauma, but also can find a way to get out of get out of her own head in her own space.

when I think about the central theme, what I was really trying to encapsulate in it is that we all kind of have these, weaknesses or growth areas. And again, this is coming from like mainly corporate world. But also, you know, if you think about your own personal goals and what you want to try to achieve,

you've always got something that you want to improve on. And so I've kind of turned them little bits of darkness. And so Istred's theme, I suppose, in this whole story, and even saying to a degree is, if you actually accept those, that, you know, there are flaws in your own character, and if you actually accept them and understand them, they can actually turn into major strengths for you. They can help you become really resilient and overcome challenges that you wouldn't have thought you have been able to overcome without accepting,

everything that makes you you. And so that's kind of that central theme is the whole kind of theme of acceptance and the vulnerability and accepting to be vulnerable and the flaws and being able to, I suppose, channel those into strengths.

Tina Koutras (07:27)
Wow, that's an incredible message.

Cat Sirota (07:29)
Thanks.

Tina Koutras (07:30)
I do, I think that's an amazing message and I think it's one that, you know, certain people would really benefit from to be able to truly grasp that in your story would be very awesome.

Cat Sirota (07:40)
Yeah!

Yeah, well, think today, I mean, back in, like I said, I'm almost 40. So back in the day, it was very black and white. Like you had strengths and you had weaknesses and you kind of focus on your strengths and you kind of just hid the weaknesses under the rug and that was it. Whereas I think today with a lot of obviously psychological advancements and the way that we understand the way the human mind works, it actually means that, you

Tina Koutras (07:53)
Mm-hmm.

Cat Sirota (08:07)
You can't be perfect at everything. You've actually got to have these flaws because that's what makes you you, but it also makes you very resilient and makes you powerful in your own ways.

Tina Koutras (08:18)
That's funny, I was thinking the same word, powerful. I love that. So the world building in fantasy can be pretty intricate. Can you walk us through your process of when you were creating the setting and the lore for Forgiving Darkness?

Cat Sirota (08:20)
Yeah.

Yeah, great question. I think that's the one thing that I love about fantasy is the world building. You know, like I try and go back to other genres that I'm like, no, no, it just doesn't have the world building. But it also can be really hard to write, like you just said, it can be really incredibly hard to write, because even though you're, you're writing the impossible, you still have to base it off some kind of reality, right. And so for Forgiving Darkness,

Tina Koutras (08:41)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

Hmm.

Cat Sirota (08:56)
because it's primarily based in human world settings, I drew a lot of inspiration from history. So I'm a massive history geek. I love history. I studied history at school and university and I'm a huge big history geek fan, especially medieval style history. And so I drew a lot of inspiration from, studying history back in the day. And funnily enough, I had this, when I was a child, I actually went to the UK with my nana.

and my favorite place to visit was the Tower of London's dungeon. You know, and all these kind of, you know, crazy medieval castles and stuff. So I've drawn it from, I suppose, my own learning, you know, when I studied history, my own experiences, you know, going and visiting places. And then I think I mentioned before that, you know, part of Nordea, which is one of the human settings in the novel was

Tina Koutras (09:27)
I would be all over.

Cat Sirota (09:44)
brought on the inspiration was drawn on from, Viking settings. And that's actually from the where I got the inspiration from that from was the series Vikings with Travis Fimmel. I love that series because again, historical, you know, sort of history based series. And so it's a thing for me, the world building is channeling what you know, but then also adding a bit of like a what if what if this happened? What if this was different? How would this work? And you kind of continue to unpick

these different questions to build out your world.

Tina Koutras (10:13)
Yeah, that's awesome. are you like a plotter or flying by the seat of your pants a little bit? I find that that question is different for everybody, but it's kind of, it gives a view into a person's mindset of how, how they stick to their rules and, and what it looks like.

Cat Sirota (10:18)
Yeah!

So for Forgiving Darkness, the first book, sorry, a bit of glare there. It was, I definitely plotted it. I plotted it quite vigorously. know, sort of chapter by chapter, scene by scene, had an overall, synopsis that I was continually refining and working to. And because it was part of a series, I actually plotted out, at least at a high level, I plotted out the end to end series.

Tina Koutras (10:36)
That's okay.

Cat Sirota (10:54)
What's interesting around book two because I'm just going into the editorial process for book two is that I actually plotted out probably the first half of it and then the second half was much more of a panster type process because I knew where the end was and I knew where the midpoint was but I just didn't know what was going to happen there. So I did I've taken a bit more of a supposed a mixed approach with book two.

Tina Koutras (11:17)
Yeah, you let them breathe a little, let them do their own thing for a bit. That's awesome.

Cat Sirota (11:19)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And mean,

I've always had like a high level plan, right? But I haven't. Yeah, definitely with book one, it was very much very detailed. Whereas book two has been a bit more, I suppose, freer, I should say.

Tina Koutras (11:32)
Okay, so how long did your plotting process take? If you were doing it so detailed that even each chapter was broken down, how long did that process take for you?

Cat Sirota (11:40)
Mm.

It was about four months end to end. from like idea, know, sort of ideation, original idea right through to kind of jotting down notes and everything. It was about four months for Forgiving Darkness. For book two, because it was a mixed approach, it was probably, I want to say about a month, much shorter, again, because I had actually done a lot of the upfront work for book two and I suppose, you know, Forgiving Darkness, the book one.

Tina Koutras (12:02)
Mm-hmm.

Cat Sirota (12:09)
And so yeah, a lot quicker. I'm just starting to plot out a new series and the aim is to get that done in six weeks. So I'm kind of trying to really turn on the, yeah, exactly, right.

Tina Koutras (12:17)
Hybrid.

So can you share a little bit of the emotional core of binary souls duology?

Cat Sirota (12:27)
Yeah, I suppose the emotional core is, again, it comes back to a story of redemption, know, kind of redeeming oneself. If I think about Istra, the emotional journey that she's gone on, you know, she's come from this very traumatized background. And she's trying to, work her way out of it by,

trying to seek revenge for against her own, the people that wronged her in the past, but also try and right her own wrongs. So I think for me, the emotional journey in the book is around, yeah, central theme is redemption, but the other theme is also resilience and independence. So being resilient and again, going back to the whole, your failures and weaknesses and the things that you may not like about yourself, accepting them.

Tina Koutras (12:56)
Mm-hmm.

Cat Sirota (13:15)
and it's a story for growth as well, I should say.

Tina Koutras (13:17)
Okay. And so what inspired the characters for them for Forgiving Darkness?

Cat Sirota (13:22)
That's a great question. When I was growing up, I grew up in South Africa with six girl cousins and we always played make-believe games and they were always the princesses. I was always the witch. I always played the evil witch that would imprison them and take them hostage and do all the bad things to them. And I've always had this fascination with Disney villains. like Melissa Fint and Grimelda.

And Ursula, they always fascinated me. And so I kind of had this question, well, what if the villains weren't actually born bad? They were kind of nurtured to be bad. So there's this whole sort of nature versus nurture argument at play. And so I said, well, what if I had a character who was kind of the wronged villain? So she was always encapsulated in the public eye as being the villain, but what made her bad? What made her do those things?

if she could start again, would she still go down that path? And so that's the kind of the inspiration behind Istredd is this whole wrong villain persona.

Tina Koutras (14:21)
Okay. All right. I think that gives forgiving darkness a little bit more understanding at that point. Go ahead. Sorry. I was just going to ask the next question. So I wanted to hear what you're going to say.

Cat Sirota (14:23)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. No, no, you go, you go.

I was gonna

say that the interesting thing is, if I think about Forgiving Darkness as the title as well as, again, going back to that central theme of forgiving oneself for the little bits of darkness and suppose flaws that live within you. But the interesting thing about Binary Souls is the series title itself is about darkness and light.

know, if you think about the scientific kind of terminology, binary, one can't exist without the other. And if you think about darkness and light, wouldn't, one wouldn't exist without the other. that'll give you a sneak peek because no one else has heard this yet. Embracing, embracing light is the second book title. So forgiving darkness, embracing light, binary souls, it's kind of all packaged in one.

Tina Koutras (15:12)
Bye.

Oh, wicked. I love that. So,

Cat Sirota (15:17)
Yeah.

Tina Koutras (15:19)
Your readers praise your dark characters and satisfying plot twists. How do you go about crafting those unexpected twists?

Cat Sirota (15:27)
You know what's funny about the unexpected twists is they usually come really unexpectedly.

Tina Koutras (15:31)
They're really unexpected.

Cat Sirota (15:35)
Like I'll be in the shower

and I'll be like, wow, that would be a great thing to happen. Oh my God, I need to write it down. Like literally, it's so, it's such an odd, think writing, everyone thinks that, you you've got to be really methodical and these things just happen in a really logical way. No, they don't. Like literally, I think the craziest plot twists in the book came out of nowhere, literally nowhere, where I'd be waking up like in the middle of the night and be like, oh my God, that would be awesome. Just suddenly and randomly, right?

Tina Koutras (16:02)
Yeah, I totally get that.

Cat Sirota (16:04)
I wish there was more method to the madness, but there's actually not. Like seriously, some of the biggest plot twists happened at the most unexpected times. And then when I was trying to think about plot twists that I could add in, it was like crickets.

Tina Koutras (16:15)
That's what I was, when I said at the very beginning of the, they kind of take on their own lives? That's what I'm referring to is that the characters kind of, you know, talk to you a little bit and they kind of build on themselves as you get going, right?

Cat Sirota (16:20)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I I did. I think I was I was really lucky. I worked with a developmental editor who I because I think with characters is sometimes you can get too close to them. So you don't actually see what work they need done. And so I worked with a developmental editor who said, this character needs X, Y and Z type thing. And like I said, try and sit down and work out what the character needed. But it wouldn't come to me. And it wasn't until yeah, it was like

in the middle of the shower or making dinner that I'd be like, ah, Eureka, there we go.

Tina Koutras (16:58)
So what does your typical writing routine look like?

Cat Sirota (17:01)
Writing now versus writing Forgiving Darkness has been very different. So Forgiving Darkness, I typically wrote first thing in the morning, like I got up at five and that's when I did, you know, writing time and everything. And then when I switched to editing, I actually did all my editing in the evening with Forgiving Darkness. But now that I'm writing a second book,

and also plotting out a new series, my writing schedule a lot different. So right now for me, 5am is admin time, which is answering emails, doing socials, And then the writing time is actually probably around eight to 9am. So it's slightly later in the morning, and then the evenings editing because I think what I have found is I still like to write in the morning when my brain is fresh.

And I haven't had the day drag on me. Whereas editing is quite interesting because editing requires a different muscle. I think you use a lot more logical muscles in your brain when you're editing. So doing it in the evenings a lot easier, whereas for creative writing, I still find that having that early, the sort of the morning session is still the best way to go. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (18:07)
Okay, that's

really cool advice. And are you a coffee or a tea girl?

Cat Sirota (18:10)
Yeah!

You know what, I only just started drinking coffee. I always used to be a tea girl and then I don't know what has happened recently, but all of a sudden my body's going, no, you need a coffee. And like I can have two or three coffees a day now, whereas before I knew it, couldn't even handle one, right?

Tina Koutras (18:20)
Peace.

5 a.m. might do it to you. So writer's block is something many creators struggle with. Do you ever get it and how do you overcome it if you do?

Cat Sirota (18:30)
Yeah!

Yeah

Yeah, great question. And yes, it's right as block is real and it can be awful when it hits you. I found doing exercise so like if you get writers block, go for a walk, know, just, you know, just get your body moving, get your brain completely off what you're trying to do and walk away from it, whether it be a couple of hours or even just putting it down for a day or something like that can really help. And one thing that I have found is coloring.

So, you know, the adult colouring books, just getting some... Yeah, I actually found a romanticy one in my local bookstore and it's got like scenes from court of thorns and roses, it's got scenes from fourth wing and I'm like, yep, this is my jam.

Tina Koutras (19:05)
Yeah, my sister loves them.

That's perfect.

Cat Sirota (19:19)
So colouring

is another one that I found to really help. And I have tried this before, but I haven't tried it recently again, is something that I learned in one of my jobs is if you ever get stuck or writers block, draw a polar bear. I know, really random, I have tried it and it actually does work. You just sit there and you draw a polar bear. Just take your time drawing a polar bear and just somehow it's really strange, but it actually just helps you unblock things.

Tina Koutras (19:47)
That's wild. I wonder if it's got to just do with the change in focus. Because I can imagine that it would become sort of like a multiplying effect where you start to get frustrated and it just compounds. But you just sit there and focus on drawing a polar bear. Interesting.

Cat Sirota (19:52)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, I

it's random, isn't it? I've tried it. Yeah, I tried it a couple of times when I was doing Forgiving Darkness. And it really worked. It really helped.

Tina Koutras (20:13)
Now you have to post those polar bear pictures. Only people who've heard the podcast would understand.

Cat Sirota (20:15)
Yeah, it's all the pictures

I'm actually gonna do that. I'm actually gonna be like, Polar Bear time!

Tina Koutras (20:24)
Who knows, maybe it'll become a thing.

Cat Sirota (20:29)
I'll go viral for my lopsided polar

bears.

Tina Koutras (20:31)
Any publicity is good publicity. So fantasy and romance are rich genres. What do you think makes those two blend so well together?

Cat Sirota (20:32)
yeah!

Soon.

I fantasy, think for me, I mean, I love fantasy, I've always read fantasy, but I think fantasy for a lot of people can be like pure fantasy can be really intimidating. think, you know, fantasy as a genre can be because it's so has so many intricate world building elements because there's so many, you know, usually there's multiple, multiple characters and stuff like that. So I think as a genre, fantasy can be quite intimidating.

The reason why think fantasy and romance work so well together is that you bring in the romantical element and it almost, it'll appeal to a broader audience. But I also think it kind of makes it, it weaves in another, I suppose, layer that takes away from all of the kind of the craziness of the, you sometimes the craziness of the world building that makes it a lot easier to digest. That's just my opinion though. I'm sure there are probably a million other opinions out there, but I do think

that introducing that romantical element adds another dimension that makes a lot easier for people to kind of, absorb all the fantastical elements around it.

Tina Koutras (21:41)
Yeah, so sort of like tunnel vision, creating a focus point for people to be able to absorb everything around them.

Cat Sirota (21:48)
Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Because like I said, I think I I love fantasy, and it's still my main genre. But I think I know talking to a lot of like a lot of my girlfriends that I don't know, won't read fantasy. It's too you know, it's too much to for us to handle what they'll read contemporary romance. And what's interesting is they're my friends, they read my book, they're like, how do we not know about romanticy now? Like, this is a whole new world for us. I'm like, I told you, I told you.

Tina Koutras (22:12)
That's kind of what happened to my sister too. She used to be like just in the romance world. And now that I think about it, was ACOTAR that kind of slammed her into the romantasy. That's funny you say that. Yeah. So did you feel any particular challenges weaving fantasy and romance into the seamless narrative that you created?

Cat Sirota (22:14)
Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly, right?

Yes and no. think…

The thing that I struggled with is with romance, what I found with romance, except for dark romance, so dark romance is a different story all to itself, but with romance in itself, kind of the core theme is you need to be rooting for the characters to get together. You want to root for the couple, you want to root for that. Whereas I think with fantasy, you kind of go, yeah, no, actually, we just want to sometimes just make the guy an asshole for a bit because he needs to.

And I think you can get away with that and fantasy a little bit more. Like you can make the characters a little bit less likeable and you can make them really kind of this otherworldly, you know, defy all Norman human, you know, relationship and psychology elements and stuff like that. Because you're like, well, they kind of live in this la la land, which, you know, societal norms don't belong there. And so I think that's one thing that I just struggled with because

Tina Koutras (23:02)
Ha ha ha.

Cat Sirota (23:28)
And this is when my developmental editor kind of challenged me going, you've still got to make them likeable. You've still got to make people want to root for the people to come together. And so that's something that I did struggle with,

Tina Koutras (23:39)
Okay. And I want to say, how did you overcome it? But at the same time, I feel like there's no spoiler free way to answer that question.

Cat Sirota (23:48)
I say, like, I know,

How did I overcome it? I think for me, I had to do some concessions. So, you know, some of the characters that I originally had in the earlier drafts are very different from the characters that are in the book. And I had to make a couple of concessions, especially obviously working with developmental editor who said, no, no, no, you kind of need to focus on these elements here. So I have had to make concessions and my original character.

Tina Koutras (24:01)
Mm-hmm.

Cat Sirota (24:13)
and how they were portrayed and stuff like that. Not so much with Estrid, but some of the surrounding characters. I think the other thing as well is that my side characters were quite front and center. So I had, know, I've got my two main characters, Estrid and Zane, but my side characters and my supporting cast, I had to bolster them up a little bit more as well.

Tina Koutras (24:32)
Okay. Okay. I'm actually quite intrigued now. I definitely have to read it. So your characters often face some complex relationship and some moral dilemmas. How do you approach writing genuine and compelling romance with a fantastical setting?

Cat Sirota (24:36)
Yeah.

Ooh, that's a good one. I think you've always got to make characters work for it, So when I was writing Forgiving Darkness, I was working with the Novelry, which is a group in the UK, which helps novelists go through the various stages and processes of getting a novel out.

Tina Koutras (24:52)
Mm-hmm.

Cat Sirota (25:08)
And one of the things that Louise Dean, who's the director there, she said, well, you've always got to make your characters work for it. you know, when you think about just as something is going to happen to the characters, it's going to bring them together, something will rip them apart. And so you've always got to be thinking, you know, what can I make happen to them? Go, not this again, or how do I overcome this? And so I think for me,

That's the one thing that I was always trying to do is as much as, because you've got the fated mates trope, which is the central trope in the book. And so, you know, if everyone's familiar with Fated Mates, it's kind of the instant attraction, but then it'll just become too boring if you have just instant attraction throughout the whole book. So you've got to throw some kind of hurdles and obstacles in the way that will challenge the characters both at an individual level and also a relationship level.

So again, those plot twists that we were talking about earlier, that's where they come into play.

Tina Koutras (25:59)
Okay, I like that answer. That's good. What advice would you give to any aspiring writers who would want to write their stories in a fantasy or romance genre?

Cat Sirota (26:01)
Hahaha.

I would say that the number one piece of advice is get a mentor or work with a developmental editor early on within genre. Because what's interesting is both fantasy and romance have their own genre elements. romance will follow a certain beat, sort of a cute beat and stuff like that. Whereas fantasy,

you've got this almost the art of the impossible comes through. And so it's, you you need an editor who's I suppose, editor and or mentor who's got who understands both genres in terms of that typical romance beat that, you know, the genre takes but also then how do you build in the impossible and probable elements to it as well. So that's probably the number one thing.

Tina Koutras (26:55)
Okay, so at what stage did you involve your editor?

Cat Sirota (26:58)
I had, I used both mentors and editors. So the great thing about working with the Novelry who I worked with is that I worked with writer coaches throughout the process. So Tasha Suri, who's a fantasy romance author based out of the UK. She was my author mentor for Forgiving Darkness. And she, I think we probably spent over the course of the,

Tina Koutras (27:17)
Mm-hmm.

Cat Sirota (27:22)
three months that it took me to write the first draft, we probably met every, I want to say every two to three weeks, where I kind of just continually test my ideas. You know, I want to do this, how does that, you know, with that work, yes, no. And so she gave me continuous advice to kind of keep driving the plot forward, but also continue to develop the characters. And again, because she's kind of in genre, she was able to say, well,

you know, this is what this is how we've seen it work really well with other authors. This is how me as as an author myself would make this work. So that was really helpful. And then when I got to the editing stage, I did probably three rounds of edits myself just self edits, again, sort of using the the Novelry course content before I engaged with a an editor to do a I suppose a full manuscript review and then they

looked at it from a developmental perspective going, okay, this is what would work, this is what wouldn't work. Here are your plot holes, here's where it stacks up against kind of books in the same genre and so on and so forth.

Tina Koutras (28:20)
So I have to ask, was there any point through the editing process where they made a suggestion that made you just want to pull your hair out? I was just mentally picturing somebody, you know, saying this has to change, but it can't change.

Cat Sirota (28:28)
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, big time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, totally.

And I think, you know, I think as a writer, you've got to trust your instinct as well. Like, I mean, don't get me wrong, you need to listen to editors, listen to editors is definitely, you know, something that I would say is gospel. But at the same time, there are probably elements where you go, actually, no, this is just something I want to keep in, right. And so yeah, you've I mean, it's all because reading is such a subjective thing.

Tina Koutras (28:58)
Thank you.

Cat Sirota (29:03)
You know, so some things you may like, half your fans will like and then half of them won't like it. So I guess you've also got to toy around and just have a play with an experiment, I guess, with what you think works. But yeah, definitely. mean, seek advice from editors and, you know, take on board probably 90 % of their advice because that's what that's their job.

Tina Koutras (29:10)
Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. So a lot of fantasy literature reflects topical themes and human struggles. Are there any societal or personal issues that you've woven into your books?

Cat Sirota (29:36)
think for me, not intentionally, I think unintentionally the thing that I have woven through is, I suppose, don't want to say rise against oppression, but the acceptance of everybody. And it comes through stronger in book two. So book one, we kind of get inklings of this theme.

And it's more kind of against kind of the the tyrannical rise up against the tyrannical type thing. But in book two, we're definitely starting to get themes of inclusivity kind of, you know, working together and all that. I know it sounds really fluffy and lala. But you know, given given the current, external landscape of the world, I think it's quite an important thing.

Tina Koutras (30:11)
I don't think so.

That leads to the next question. Many readers see books as a form of escapism. What role do you think the storytelling plays in helping readers to deal with real life challenges?

Cat Sirota (30:27)
Yeah, I mean, from my own personal experience, mean, reading itself was a great escapism for stress, know, just disconnecting from the world. But I think, again, you know, so subjective to what people have going on in their own lives. Now, reading can just be a way to escape a daily stress, but reading can also be a way to.

work through your own trauma, right? Because you can relate to characters who have gone through a similar, I suppose, scenario that speaks to you going, okay, wow, I really appreciate how this author's written this character. I mean, know Rebecca, I was at event last year, actually, with Rebecca Yaros in Auckland. know, Violet, she wrote Violet, having the same sort of,

struggles as she did, right? And so Violet was almost a representation of some of the struggles that she's had with her own, I suppose, mental health, but also her own kind of physical health. And how do you write into characters like that? what was really interesting at that session with Rebecca is that a lot of people in the audience who said that they resonated with Violet for that exact same reason is that she had, she kind of represented someone who had sort of physical medical challenges, but

was over to overcome that and just be super resilient and determined. So I think the power of a pen is just amazing in that sense,

Tina Koutras (31:40)
Yeah, absolutely. And totally agree. You've also mentioned too about overcoming, you know, not necessarily being a prisoner to your past and allowing yourself to heal. So that's another aspect of what you're just talking about, using escapism to use those tools.

Cat Sirota (31:50)
Mm.

Yeah.

Only, right?

It's a form of therapy, right? Like, I mean, you know, probably a psychologist wouldn't really agree. So with some of the stuff that's, but even, even dark, know, even, even darker, darker stories and stuff like that are still a form of therapy, right? And I think it's, I think it's really awesome that people can seek refuge in a book as opposed to having to just grind through life with nothing to support them.

Tina Koutras (32:11)
Yes.

Yeah, our second podcast was actually with Maddie Rose-Andry who is a psychiatrist who used telling her story as a form of therapy and recovery. So agreed, absolutely. So your Goodreads profile mentions that you love authors like LJ Andrews and Jennifer Armentrout What was one lesson that you've learned from these or other authors that you admire?

Cat Sirota (32:24)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Amazing.

I think Perseverance. mean, LJ Andrews is an amazing author. You know, she started off indie, she's gone trad. I think, you know, Jennifer Armantrout, she's hybrid. You know, P.M. Cole, I she's gone trad. Love Everflame, by the way, that's probably one of my favorite series. But I think the thing with them that I really have come to appreciate is just the perseverance.

And you know, just keep going. There was Sophie Lark also, she had an Instagram story a while ago where she said, just get your story out there. You know, get the story out there because

You learn from it, you grow from it, you understand more about yourself as a writer, you understand your audience, that sort of stuff. So I think for me, it's kind of everything that I've taken from authors, whether they be trad published or indie published or hybrid is, you know, just persevere, be resilient. And what's really interesting is one of my friends is a partner at Deloitte.

And she said to me, man, you've got to have thick skin as an author, right? And I said to her, well, that's quite funny coming from a partner at Deloitte where you've probably got to have thick skin to work at Deloitte. But anyway, was like, yeah, you do actually. I think, you know, seeing seeing journeys like Jennifer Armentrout's journey, like LJ Andrew's journey has been really inspirational to see what they've gone through and how they've grown into their own brands, right?

Tina Koutras (34:06)
Right. So that's from a writer's perspective. So what about you, the reader? Like when you read their books, what do you take from them?

Cat Sirota (34:09)
Mm.

Oh, it's a good question. I think for me, if I think about Jennifer Armentrout's Blood and Ash series, you know, I love that series. It's probably one of my favorite. You know, that one for me the resilience theme again, struck out. You know, kind of thinking about Poppy and her journey and what she's had to go through and it's like that, you know, from this servitude, you know, just doing as you're told.

Tina Koutras (34:25)
Hmm.

Cat Sirota (34:39)
following a certain path right through to actually, no, this isn't what I want and kind of taking her own destiny into her own hands and work and going, I suppose, fleeing with hawk to a degree and whatnot. I think for me, that whole, again, crafting your own destiny, both from a writer and a reader perspective has resonated. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (35:00)
Right, very cool.

Okay. So are there any bits of myth and folklore or historical events that have snuck their way into your books?

Cat Sirota (35:09)
Yes, so actually, apart from the Disney villain aspect that I spoke about earlier, Forgiving Darkness actually does have a sort Celtic mythology element to it. I took the wronged villain aspect and coupled that with an old Scottish folk tale called The Norse King's Dark Sorceress Daughter.

Tina Koutras (35:15)
you

Cat Sirota (35:34)
which is about when the Vikings invaded Scotland, one of the Norse kings sent over his daughter, who was a dark sorceress, to conquer and, kill the villagers and and And what ended up happening is that she actually was caught and she died. That's in the folk tale. That's obviously not what happens in Forgiving Darkness. But what I did do was I said, well, what if she actually survived? So what would happen if...

A Norse king sent his daughter over to Scotland and she didn't actually she die, she survived. What would she do next? And then you add in that wrong villain aspect over the top of it. Like was she actually really a dark sorceress or was she, you know? So you kind of add in those layers together.

Tina Koutras (36:15)
I'm very excited about reading this. This is the problem I'm now experiencing by doing this podcast is talking to the author for the amount of time that I'm talking to them. I'm falling in love with all of these books and now I'm collecting them and I have to read. Yes! It really is. But that's okay because it's just one more person to sing your praise.

Cat Sirota (36:28)
Your TV is just going...

Yeah.

Thank you.

Tina Koutras (36:39)
So fantasy has grown so much over the years with diverse storytelling and characters. Where do you see the genre headed in the future?

Cat Sirota (36:46)
I think a lot of genres are always subject to trends. We see a lot of typically romance will follow a certain trend for a second and then crime thrillers will follow a trend. And so there's always trends, but I feel like fantasy, because fantasy is such a broad genre. I actually think it's more evergreen than some of the other genres.

If I think about even just looking at sort of Raymond D. Feist, the magician, just think about the magician series, how it went from and it just continued to grow. so I think for me, fantasy is, don't get me wrong, does have certain trends. Like you'll go through, I'm going through my vampire phase, or I'm going through this phase, I'm going through that phase. But it's still kind of as a genre, it's quite evergreen. And because it's so broad, you're always gonna have these different elements that all.

Tina Koutras (37:13)
Yes.

Cat Sirota (37:32)
I suppose keep it as a really interesting genre to read and also watch and write, I should say.

Tina Koutras (37:38)
I totally agree with that. That's, and you're right. It's, you can see it happening almost like in waves where, you know, I mean, we all had our Twilight era. We had our Harry Potter era, right? And, Mockingjay and all of those, you know, sort of, competitive type ones, like they're all amazing, but they definitely seem to follow a wave. So.

Cat Sirota (37:45)
Yeah, yeah.

yeah. Totally.

Yeah, totally.

Tina Koutras (38:04)
Many romance stories explore complex relationships. What do you think sets fantasy romance apart from contemporary or historical romances?

Cat Sirota (38:14)
I think the immediate thing that comes to mind here is somehow Beauty and the Beast and like the true Grumpy Sunshine where the guy is just so grumpy because every time I think about Grumpy Sunshine as a trope, it automatically draws me to fantasy because I don't know why but I feel like I can get away with Grumpy Sunshine that much more in fantasy whereas in contemporary romance if you do Grumpy Sunshine you gotta go, well he's just an asshole, why would you?

Tina Koutras (38:40)
Yeah,

there's no redeeming qualities in him.

Cat Sirota (38:44)
Yeah, whereas,

you know, make him an asshole and a grumpy shifter. well, hello, that's way better,

Tina Koutras (38:49)
So true.

Cat Sirota (38:53)
So yeah, feel like

with romance and fantasy, it's quite interesting just because you can do so much more with the complex relationships and I think you can get away with a lot more in complex relationships and fantasy romance. Whereas I think with contemporary romance, you have to still make it somewhat believable in a human psychological element, you know?

Tina Koutras (39:04)
Yeah.

We'd all be running for the hills.

Cat Sirota (39:13)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly right. Unless

it's dark romance and that's just another category all on its own, right?

Tina Koutras (39:18)
That's right.

So what's the biggest misconception readers or new writers have about either the fantasy or romance genres? Do you think?

Cat Sirota (39:26)
I think new readers for fantasy, I alluded to this earlier, people always misconstrue that fantasy is going to be a big read, it's going to be a heavy read. And don't get me wrong, it can be. What was interesting is my husband read my book. My husband is not a reader. He just does not read books. If he does read a book, it's like, I don't know, Anthony Kiedis' autobiography, or something like that. He just does not read. So he read my book and then he came to me the other day, he was like,

really enjoyed that. What else from your library can I read?" I was like, hmmm, thought, you know what, Court of Thorns and Roses would be a great next step. I didn't actually have a physical copy on me because it's on my Kindle. So I was like, oh, we'll try Crescent City. And then I was like, a day later, I was like, why did you give him Crescent City? That's just crazy. that's such a

Tina Koutras (40:08)
That one takes a little

to get into.

Cat Sirota (40:13)
I

know, it's like, that's a big read, right? Because again, that kind of more, even though Crescent City is not necessarily its urban fantasy, it's still kind of that big fantasy element to it. So I think that's probably the one thing with fantasy is that it can be quite intimidating as a non-fantasy reader to get into the genre because it's so complex. And for me, romance, what I have found...

Tina Koutras (40:22)
Mm-hmm.

Cat Sirota (40:34)
because I haven't really gotten into contemporary romance and romance as much as fantasy romance. I think because switching from fantasy into romance, find romance because it doesn't have the complex world building and stuff like that. They tend to be a lot easier reads, which is good. Like if you need a palate cleanser, fantastic, right? But I think, yeah, yeah. Whereas I feel for fantasy, yeah, you kind of have to do your stretches, do your warm up before you start getting into it, right?

Tina Koutras (40:47)
You

Right, good word for it.

Yeah, it's also when you say a palate cleanser, it's a great hangover cure, I would think. Because some books you finish and you're like, I'm never going to read again. You feel so, so disappointed when you turn that last page, no matter how good it is, you just get so sad.

Cat Sirota (41:06)
Yes, yeah, yeah.

no!

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I have to say

that the one the one romance book that or series that is probably in my top three, which I'm just like, wow, that just blew me out of the water from a romance perspective is Kate Stewart's The Raven Hood series. it is just it is yeah, from a romance, I mean, it's probably more dark romance, but it's

Tina Koutras (41:34)
Okay, I haven't heard of it, but I'm gonna look it up.

Cat Sirota (41:42)
It's probably the one like sort of non fantasy romance based series that I've just been like, wow, that is amazing because the relationships that she's actually built between all the characters, just, they almost feel like a world in themselves. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (41:55)
Yeah, cool.

Props to your husband for reading your book when he's not actually a reader though. I think that's pretty cool.

Cat Sirota (42:00)
It

took him a long time, but he really enjoyed it. Now, yeah, he's got other books to read, which is great.

Tina Koutras (42:08)
I just think it's a very strong sign of support. It's not always going to happen, I don't think, and I think that's awesome. So

Cat Sirota (42:11)
Yeah.

Yeah, no, he's awesome.

Tina Koutras (42:15)
the publishing world can be super competitive. How do you handle feedback from both positive and negative or we'll say critical from readers or editors?

Cat Sirota (42:18)
Mm.

mean, readers and editors are so like the feedback that they have and give you are so different. So I'll tackle the editors question first. I think with editors, you've got to approach an editorial review or conversation as they're looking at it from a market aspect, like what would work in market, what would work commercially.

And looking at that because that's what effectively an editor is looking for, right? Is they want to be make you successful as an author and they know what's happening in market. because they've, worked with hopefully a lot of authors and stuff in genre. They know where the gold standard is and you know what you need to do to be there. So I think the way that you approach editorial feedback, you need to be very open minded, like very open minded in terms of change. What do you need to change in your story?

Tina Koutras (43:10)
Mm-hmm.

Cat Sirota (43:10)
and why

you need to change it. Don't get me wrong, they're still kind of, you that 10 % go, no, no, no, I'm going to keep that in there. I don't care what you say. But 90%, you should be listening to them. Whereas readers, critical feedback from reviewers, I view slightly differently because they're reading it as a what do I like, not what does the market like. So very different, a lot more subjectivity in there.

Tina Koutras (43:16)
Yeah.

Right.

Cat Sirota (43:31)
And what I found is that you need to look at sort of negative reviews in two ways. Are they giving you a bad, bad review because they just didn't like your stuff full stop? Like no matter what you did and changed and how you kind of reorientate the book, would that ever have satisfied them as an individual versus good, bad feedback, which is, okay, they're treating it more like an editorial review, which is actually, they didn't like it.

Tina Koutras (43:56)
constructive.

Cat Sirota (43:57)
for these, yeah, for these reasons. So that's the way that I look at it. And I think from what I've taken with my own kind of, you know, looking at my own reviews and stuff, there are, you know, very small subset of bad, bad reviews, which I'm like, well, you just gotta brush those off, you know, kind of keep, keep moving forward. And then there's the ones that actually have constructive feedback, which I'm like, cool, that's really good to understand for my next book and for my next series, like, what do I need to work on and develop as a

Tina Koutras (44:12)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Cat Sirota (44:23)
as a writer and focus on. I think, two very different pieces, but you know, the good bad reviews from an individual just does kind of support the editorial stuff as well.

Tina Koutras (44:25)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it too. It's like in, have you ever seen when the actors read some of the snippets from critics? Some of them are pretty funny. So indie authors and small publishers have reshaped the industry, I think. And what do you feel has been your experience as an author navigating

Cat Sirota (44:35)
Yeah.

yeah. Yeah.

yeah, big time.

Tina Koutras (45:00)
this in D space.

Cat Sirota (45:02)
It is a wild ride. That's all I can say. I've learned a lot and originally I was going to try and trade publish and I was like, yeah, I'm going to try and trade publish, et cetera, et cetera. And then I actually spoke to a whole bunch of author friends who were indie and they were like, try indie first because not only do you get a lot more control, but you get to see a lot more under the covers.

Tina Koutras (45:07)
Yeah.

Cat Sirota (45:29)
you know, in terms of, yeah, literally in terms of what is actually going on, what are the processes and steps that you need to take to get published. And so that's where I decided to self publish. And I've learned a hell of a lot. There are things that I probably definitely wouldn't do again, there are things that I would do 10 times over, because they worked really well on it, understand things. And so I think you've just got to try things, right? Is the is the main is the main

Tina Koutras (45:29)
Literally.

Cat Sirota (45:53)
message is you've just got to try different things. If you want to trade publish, you know, be prepared to wait a long time, be prepared to not understand all the steps that you're going to need to go through and be at the mercy of publishers and not to say that that's a bad thing because they have a lot more reach. The trade off for self publishing and indie publishing is that you're to have to work a lot harder to get that reach. you've got to have

sort of be willing to put in the time and also, obviously self-publishing, there's a cost to it that you need to be comfortable with absorbing, right?

Tina Koutras (46:26)
Right, exactly. Very true. So your readers love the lush worlds and the dark characters you've created. What's one detail or Easter egg in Forgiving Darkness that fans may have or may overlook?

Cat Sirota (46:27)
Yeah.

so there is an ultimate bad guy. He is mentioned in book one. He is mentioned, but he is not the end bad guy in book one. So that's the only thing I can say. are multiple iterations of the bad guy, but the ultimate one is in book two and he's just

Tina Koutras (46:43)
Okay.

Okay, that's a good one to watch for.

Cat Sirota (47:00)
It's slightly inserted in book one somewhere.

Tina Koutras (47:03)
I love that. OK,

so if one of your characters could jump out of the page and sit with us here, who would you choose for it to be and what would you ask them?

Cat Sirota (47:09)
Mm.

I definitely choose Alvy. So Alvy is the brother of Zayn, the main main MMC. And the reason why I like Alvy is he's the comedic relief in the book. So he's kind of the life of the party. he's the guy that makes the quip, the witty jokes and you know, sort of is the person that will relieve the tension. But I if I if you if you were sitting down at a dinner with him or something like that, I'd probably ask what was his wildest night from a party perspective?

know, what did he do that was the wildest thing at a party because I reckon he did some great stories.

Tina Koutras (47:43)
And is he based on anyone?

Cat Sirota (47:45)
No, I don't think so. Not intentionally, at least. But he does, yeah, he's there to provide a bit of, because I think again, going back to kind of, if you can get too serious about fantasy. So I wanted a character that could come in and just kind of break a bit of tension every now and then. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (47:54)
Hmm.

Yeah, lighten the mood a little. That's good.

Do you have any fun or surprising fan interactions that have stuck with you since you've published?

Cat Sirota (48:09)
do you know what? It's really cool. I had one recently, literally a couple of days ago. So on my Instagram at the moment, I'm running a giveaway. long story short, we've got an event in Sydney called Books and Ballgowns, which is run by Jamin Eve and Tate James. And I bought tickets to it. But I just bought the standard GA tickets. And then Megan, my PA, managed to get us VIP tickets. So was like,

Wow, I've got these two tickets, what do do with them? Do I resell them or shall I give them away to some lucky readers? And so I posted in a group called Australia New Zealand Book Lovers Group on Facebook and just said, check out my Instagram page if you want to enter. And one of the things in the entry is, you're at BABE and you win these tickets, I would love a photo with you and get to meet you and stuff. But on the Facebook page,

someone said, well, I already have babe tickets, but I loved your book. So can I still meet you at the event? Because that would be really cool. And I was like, my god, this is awesome.

Tina Koutras (49:00)
Hahaha

That is awesome

Cat Sirota (49:05)
Yeah, so I was

like, I did not expect that. But yeah, let's, you know, let's meet up, you didn't don't expect that sort of thing. Right? Yeah.

Tina Koutras (49:12)
Yeah, that's

awesome. So if you could chat with one of your favorite authors, past or present, who would you pick and why?

Cat Sirota (49:18)
That's such a hard one. Yeah, like who would you pick?

Tina Koutras (49:21)
Right?

Cat Sirota (49:24)
Oh my gosh, I don't know who I'd pick. I'm just trying to work through, like, would you go someone who's passed away and go like a classic, or would you go with someone who's kind of relevant or someone up and coming? I think I'd probably have to pick LJ Andrews if I could sit down and speak with her. Her journey to becoming, she's blossomed up into this amazing author, has got a real...

cult following behind her and her books are so cool. And so I think I'd probably check to her because her journey in terms of her own, you know, self publishing journey and what she learned there and stuff really reason would resonate with me. So yeah, probably got LJ Andrews. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (50:03)
Okay, very cool.

Some authors dream cast their characters. Have you done that for a movie adaptation in your own mind at all?

Cat Sirota (50:11)
The only character I've done that for is Zane. In my Scrivener that I've got on my computer, I've got obviously images taken from Pinterest and all that sort of stuff. Zane's character is the only character that I've taken actual real-world, human, real-life inspiration from. It would be Travis Fimmel or Charlie Hunnan.

Tina Koutras (50:31)
Hahaha!

Cat Sirota (50:31)
Charlie if I had if I had to take my first plug.

Tina Koutras (50:33)
But we won't tell Travis. So what books, podcasts, or music are inspiring you these days?

Cat Sirota (50:36)
Yeah.

Oh, good question. I'm finding it's really sad, but I'm actually struggling to find time to read at the moment. I think I get like an hour at night just before I go to bed. And so at the moment I'm just trying to fit reading in. But in terms of music, I'm actually really enjoying my 90s grunge rock.

Tina Koutras (50:50)
I imagine.

Cat Sirota (51:02)
at the moment. So I've kind of gone back to my 90s grunge rock, so like Smashing Pumpkins and Soundgarden and all that sort of stuff is cropping up into my playlist. But the other thing that's really interesting about what I find for writing is actually, especially from the when I'm trying to do a big push on world building, I actually gravitate towards movie soundtracks. all composers, know, like Hans Zimmer.

Tina Koutras (51:04)
Nice.

Cat Sirota (51:27)
and stuff like that who have done compositions for major motion pictures because those can be quite soothing but actually kind of inspiring as well.

yeah, for like battle scenes, I'll be listening to like tool and def tones. And so my, you know, I have a different playlist for different things that I'm trying to achieve with my with my storytelling. And like, I know for a lot of the relationship scenes, I reverted back to liquid drum and bass and a group called hybrid, a UK group called Hybrid Minds. And that's kind of more

you know, just easy going flowing, but still there's a lot of kind of emotional ties to it and stuff as well.

Tina Koutras (52:00)
Nice. You mentioned Tool and now I'm going to have to play some because I love Tool and I haven't listened to them in so long. They are, I love them. So we've already kind of talked about what's next for you. You're going to do the sequel to this book and then you're starting a new series. Did you want to talk a little bit about that at all or no?

Cat Sirota (52:06)
This is so good, right?

Yeah, well, I think I can give you bit of an insight into timelines and where I'm at and stuff. I'm hopefully going to announce it on my socials in the next couple of weeks. But I'm looking aiming to release book two sort of early November, right just before thanks, or a couple of weeks before Thanksgiving is when I'm trying to trying to aim to do that. So I've got all the editors lined up, I've got cover artists lined up, I've got formatters lined up, everyone's ready to go. They're just waiting for me to deliver them the manuscript.

And actually Megan's about to start a read through of one of the one of the drafts at the moment. So we're kind of we're working there, which is good. And then and then to be honest, I'm probably going to take a break from so obviously Forgiving Darkness is a binary souls, duology, not to spoil anything, but there probably will be subsequent books related to other characters and the series, but I probably won't sort of look at getting to those until

end of this year, early next year. Like I feel like I need a bit of a break from these characters. You we need to have some time apart. And then the next series that I'm going to be writing, call it a Hunger Games versus, well, Hunger Games meets Dracula series.

Tina Koutras (53:18)
Mm-hmm.

Okay. All right. That sounds fun.

Cat Sirota (53:31)
Yeah.

Tina Koutras (53:33)
So finally, how would you describe your relationship with your readers?

Cat Sirota (53:38)
I love my readers. I mean, because I'm a newer author, I've got a relatively intimate and small reader group, but I love them. I've got some great ARC readers who have said, just send anything and everything to us. Throw ideas at us. Let us know what you're thinking. And it's really cool to have that kind of close intimate group. So I'm very fortunate that I've had readers that have just kind of cropped out of the woodwork.

as I've gone along the journey and it's been super exciting to see where they come from and they're all based all around the world right like I've got I think one reader who lives a couple streets down from me but then I've got some then I've got you know a couple in the UK a few in the US and Canada and Australia and stuff so it's quite cool to see have quite a diverse group of readers that I can engage with.

Tina Koutras (54:09)
Yeah.

go!

Yeah, that's awesome. And that's the beautiful thing about social too, right? It makes that aspect so possible. Like not only was publishing difficult back in the day because the indie concept wasn't really a thing, but social media kind of brought the ARC concept, you know, to anyone who you could reach. And that was just a fantastic bit of

Cat Sirota (54:44)
Yes. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (54:48)
that sort of cherry on the top for how to get your book out there.

Cat Sirota (54:52)
big time, right? And I mean, you know, look at the success. was applied for an ARC recently from Miranda Lynn for Nevermore. And you know, she got 500 people applying. I was like, wow, that's amazing, right?

Tina Koutras (55:03)
Yeah, that's awesome. That's very awesome. Because that just sets you up to have some substantial reviews on your pages, right? Yeah.

Cat Sirota (55:05)
Yeah.

Totally,

she's, mean, yeah, was just kind of yeah, that whole kind of arc concept, like you say, just being able to have that reach early on, it's been, it's amazing.

Tina Koutras (55:21)
Yeah.

Yeah. It definitely made things more possible. So, my last thing that I love to do is I love to give you the opportunity to show off your book and tell people how to find you when they're looking for your book and what you can do to reach out to you.

Cat Sirota (55:24)
yeah, big time.

Cool. Yeah. Well, I mean, if you haven't seen the cover, that's the cover there. Thank you. I'm pretty happy with it now. I'm also trying to think, damn, how am going to beat this one with book two? But I'll leave that for the cover designers. Like that's their job, So in terms of where you can find me, so obviously I'm probably my main social platform is Instagram. I'm trying my hardest to get into TikTok, but it's just,

Tina Koutras (55:42)
It's a gorgeous cover.

Hahaha!

Cat Sirota (56:04)
Instagram is probably my main page where you can find most of my socials. So, you know, do join me on that if you want to kind of see what's happening and the latest updates and everything. In terms of buying the book, it's available on most ebook platforms. So Kindle, Kobo, Nook, you name it, kind of all the ebook platforms. And then in terms of physical copies, I would say probably Amazon is probably your biggest, your easiest place to find the physical copy.

But even if you just Google for giving darkness print copies, there should be a couple areas where you can buy it because they'll be able to kind of print on demand through Ingram. So I think Waterstones is one example that have print on demand from the UK. There is for Australian readers, there is a great online bookstore called witchybooks.com.au and they're stopping stocking my book as well. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (56:52)
nice. Have you done a book

signing there?

Cat Sirota (56:53)
No, they're an online bookstore, but and unfortunately, they're that the owners all the way in Perth, which is like a eight hour flight from from Auckland. So it's quite a long way away. But also, yeah, but I actually am doing a couple of book events this year in Australia as well. So on the 23rd of March, I'll be in Sydney, doing a romantic rendezvous with Nalali Singh and Julianne Walker. And then in

Tina Koutras (56:55)
Okay.

Okay. Wow, okay.

Cat Sirota (57:18)
I'm doing one in New Zealand in Hamilton at the end of April and then yeah, just applied for a couple in Australia. So if any Australians are around, do look on my website because that's where you'll find my, events and signings and stuff as well. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (57:30)
That's awesome. Plus I think

we're going to see through Ingram whether or not we can also carry your book and have a link on the page for purchasing there as well. Cause that'll tackle the, this side of the world.

Cat Sirota (57:37)
Yeah!

North America. Yeah, totally. That would be

awesome. Let me know and I'll send you some swag that you can send out with readers as well. Yeah. And I was also going to say, I've got, just to let readers know, I am releasing deleted scenes and chapters through my newsletter. So I've released one deleted scene last month. I'm literally about to release another deleted scene this week.

Tina Koutras (57:49)
that sounds awesome. All right.

Ooh.

Cat Sirota (58:07)
And then there's also the prologue as well. So if you sign up for my newsletter, you should be able to get access to the prologue and then just email me with access to the deleted scenes. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (58:15)
very cool. Is this the

prologue for the new book or the old one? Okay. I say the old one, but the current one.

Cat Sirota (58:19)
The old one, Yeah. then, yeah. I know what mean. Yeah, yeah. And then, yeah,

the deleted scenes are, some of them are a lead up, almost like acting as a bit of a lead up to book two and give some snippets and goody eggs for book two as well. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (58:34)
Okay, that sounds

awesome. Thank you so much, Cat, for sitting down with us today. And I really thoroughly enjoyed it. was such a great chat. Thank you.

Cat Sirota (58:40)
thank you.

No, I appreciate you having me and appreciate you, especially because it's late there in the evening and whatnot. So really good to connect with you.

Tina Koutras (58:50)
Yeah, it's a little challenging to do time zones as far apart as we are, isn't it?

Cat Sirota (58:56)
Downside

of living, suppose, on literally officer ends of the world, right?

Tina Koutras (58:59)
Literally. Yeah.

It was perfect. Yeah. Your summer, I'm winter. Awesome. Thank you again. It was fantastic.

Cat Sirota (59:05)
No, thank you.

Awesome. Hey, and take care and I'm looking forward to hopefully we can do it for book two again.

Tina Koutras (59:10)
Absolutely. That sounds fun.