Ink and Flame Episode #4
Nicole Holland: Author of Shadowbound.

You can listen to Ink & Flame on Apple Podcasts, Amazon Podcasts, and pretty much every major platform you can think of—it’s everywhere your ears want it to be! Prefer visuals with your storytelling? We’ve got you covered with full video episodes available on Candlelore's YouTube channel. Wherever you like to tune in, the magic awaits!

Transcription

Tina Koutras (00:00)
Welcome to Ink and Flame. Tonight we're talking with Nicole Holland about her most recent book, Shadowbound. Hi, Nicole. Welcome to the podcast.

Nicole Holland (00:11)
Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to be here.

Tina Koutras (00:13)
I'm so excited to have you here. When I read the synopsis for your book, I was quite excited to read it. So where are you coming to us from tonight?

Nicole Holland (00:23)
I am in Texas. I'm in the North Dallas area of Texas.

Tina Koutras (00:28)
It's a lot warmer there than it is here. guarantee it. have some, yeah, we have like freezing rain going on right now. So for your standards, I'd probably be in shorts right now if I were in your area.

Nicole Holland (00:30)
Yep. You're my neighbor to the north, so it's probably freezing cold.

I've just got gray skies, that's about it, but it's a little chilly.

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, you'd be out swimming probably in this.

Tina Koutras (00:53)
So can you tell us a little bit about what kind of a reader you were growing up?

Nicole Holland (00:57)
I was a sporadic reader. I had been a horse girl almost all my life. So a lot of the books that I read were kids books with horses and teenagers and stuff like that. But I never, I was never a really consistent reader. And then Harry Potter came out and like every other kid at the time, I was very excited. But then I made it to Goblet of Fire and I saw how big that book was and I said, no, I'm out. I can't do that.

And so I never read Pass Goblet of Fire, even though I love the movies and I've read some of the books since then. pretty much after Harry Potter, I didn't read too much. And then Twilight came along and that's when I started reading more. I got obsessed with that like everyone else too. But yeah, it was really kind of on and off. And then it wasn't until 2022 that I really started getting into fantasy.

and reading frequently and also getting into horror and all that kind of stuff. So it was very, very choppy over the years.

Tina Koutras (01:52)
wow. And very diverse. Lots

of different things. What about Hunger Games? you in on that one too?

Nicole Holland (01:57)
Yeah.

I missed that one. I don't know how I missed reading that, but I love the movies. But I did go through a Nicholas Sparks phase. So I went through that and then read a few of those and kind of took a break. That was probably my last genre before getting into fantasy. So I've been all over the map with my interests.

Tina Koutras (02:17)
Yeah, for sure.

what attracted you to the beautiful chaos that is fantasy? Was there a particular...

like series of books aside from the ones you've already mentioned.

Nicole Holland (02:24)
Thank

Um, it was actually so this is kind of a little sad bit of how I got into fantasy, but my husband got sick in 2022 and he went into the hospital and he didn't get out for 40 days and he had to get an organ transplant. And so many things happen within those 40 days of his health and of my work and

It was so much that I could not handle my reality anymore. so because he was at the hospital for a long time, I needed, I needed something to read. So I went on TikTok and I just typed in fantasy book recommendations, cause I wanted something that was not at all like my real life. I needed to escape. And at the time was when the second book in the A court of thorns and roses series was really exploding.

A Court of Mist and Fury and I kept seeing that mint greenish blue color cover and I watched about 10 videos, probably six of them were about Mist and Fury. So I went to Barnes and Noble the next day, grabbed it off the shelf and I was so, I had so much tunnel vision and I was just overwhelmed with everything going on that I didn't even notice it was part of a series. And so I'm probably the only person in the world who read Mist and Fury before Thorns and Roses.

I'm reading it and I'm like, I kind of get what's going on, but maybe they'll explain some stuff later. Yeah, but it actually wasn't that hard to really get into it. So I bet nobody else has done that. But that's what really got me into it. It introduced me to Fae It introduced me to Magic Systems. I just dove headfirst and I haven't I haven't come out of the hole yet. So I'm still there reading all kinds of Romantacy and fantasy books.

Tina Koutras (03:49)
I feel like I'm missing something.

Nothing wrong with being there whatsoever. So who are some of your favorite authors in the fantasy realm nowadays?

Nicole Holland (04:14)
Yeah, I'm having a great time.

So Sarah J. Maas got me into it, like we were talking about ACOTAR And then Leigh Bardugo, because I watched Shadow and Bone on Netflix, and I'm very upset that they canceled that show, because I thought it was great. And I started reading Six of Crows, and her writing style specifically is incredibly immersive. And I don't know if it was because I had watched the show that it was easier to visualize.

Tina Koutras (04:32)
Mm-hmm. Canceled it. Yeah.

Nicole Holland (04:48)
the world she had created, but I liked her extensive world building and I wanted to do something like that. So I just really enjoyed Leigh Bardugo's writing style. And then just getting more into high fantasy and epic fantasy, I started reading R.A. Salvatore to write better fight scenes because I heard Brandon Sanderson say, Salvatore writes the best fight scenes and I was really struggling with those.

So I started reading him, the Dark Elf trilogy, and I'm getting more into Brandon Sanderson now. I just started The Way of Kings and I've gotten a little ways into Mistborn, but I'm really good at starting books and then starting other books and taking forever to finish the one that I previously started. So it takes me a while now to get through books, but probably those four. Yeah, I used to be a one at a time person and now it's like I've got 10 books with bookmarks everywhere.

Tina Koutras (05:33)
might be a little bit guilty of that too.

Nicole Holland (05:41)
throughout them and I don't know what I'm doing anymore.

Tina Koutras (05:44)
There's so

many worlds to explore, how can I stay in just one?

Nicole Holland (05:49)
Exactly. I'm like, well, this is great,

but this is the shiny new object. So I got to try that. And then I got to try this. And it's like, yeah, there's so many good things and not enough time to consume it all. So.

Tina Koutras (05:53)
you

I think I can relate a little bit to that one.

So what inspired you to kind of take the leap from reading to writing?

Nicole Holland (06:09)
I always wrote little stories growing up, I never, it wasn't anything that I really wanted to do something with. It was just an outlet. And I've always been a fairly creative person and I would write little stories in my school notebooks or practice my cursive of just writing random things. And then I just decided, I guess with a little bit of arrogance, I'm like, you know what? This sounds interesting. I'm just going to do it. And I'm just going to publish a book because why not?

And it takes a lot more work than just that, but I just looked at the stories that I had really fallen in love with and said, I could do that too. So here I am trying it out.

Tina Koutras (06:47)
That's awesome. And so this is something that I have been wanting to talk to you about for quite some time because you were actually a very strong motivating factor for me to just say, okay, just do it. When it came to, yeah, so you decided to make your journey a TikTok, like TikTok content. Let's talk a little bit about that. So what made you decide to do that?

Nicole Holland (06:50)
Thank

That makes me so happy to hear.

Yes.

I think it was, it kind of started out as an accountability thing. And I also have this problem of needing to prove to people that I'm being productive and that I'm not just sitting around doing nothing. So I thought, well, if I start making videos about my process, people are going to see that I'm doing something and I'm not just sitting at home being a waste of space. So it kind of started at that, but then it, got more into that. I really enjoyed it. And I liked talking to people that were

just readers or people that were also writers and trying to help them learn not to tell them how to do something, but to show them this is what I studied, this is what I tried, this is what did or didn't work. Just give people more access, I guess, to the information that's out there.

Tina Koutras (07:55)
Yeah, so you've introduced a lot of your craft based books, like the books that you've picked up along the way on how to do things. And I know that you talked a lot about some of your influences like R.A. Salvatore. What do you consider to be the hardest learned lesson from what you've done so far?

Nicole Holland (08:15)
That's a good question. When it comes to like what I've learned in the craft books, you mean?

Tina Koutras (08:19)
Yeah, from

your writing, like the stuff you've learned about writing.

Nicole Holland (08:24)
I've learned that in most of the craft books that I have, one of the big things they all talk about is when you're trying to describe something, we think as the author by giving a ton of description that we're being clear to the reader, but we're not doing that. We're overwhelming their senses because part of the joy of reading is the imaginative.

So I had to learn how to give just enough detail so that they know what's going on and what something looks like but still leaving some of it to the imagination because if you just say 12 different descriptors about a dresser Unless it's actually important to the story. It's just gonna overwhelm the reader and I heard I either read a quote or I heard it I can't remember but

somebody, some good writer, I can't remember who it was, said you want to treat every word on the page like a mental calorie that the reader has to burn. So whatever is super excessive and not completely necessary, just cut it out and let them imagine the rest of it. So. No, I was like, I just went through and took a red pen and slashed everything and said, OK, this is too much. I'll cut some out and we'll let the reader imagine the rest of what's going on.

Tina Koutras (09:28)
No cake in the writing.

wow, that's amazing. I'm filing that one. Okay.

Nicole Holland (09:44)
Yeah,

it's been really helpful. It's interesting because you have to think about, you see it so clear in your head, so you want the reader to see it the same. But if you give too many details about something that doesn't matter, it just becomes overwhelming and they might put it down because it could be too much and it's not necessary. So there's a balance there and I'm still trying to figure it out.

Tina Koutras (10:05)
Yeah, for sure. Okay, so the Dark Moon series is moody, dark and intense, but it's got those soft romantic moments into it. So do you always know this was kind of the storytelling you wanted or?

Nicole Holland (10:19)
Yes, I wanted to build this dark world and kind of explore all the evils of humanity without completely going all as hopeless. Everything is terrible. So you had to have some of those lighthearted moments in there, especially with romance and with love, because we all enjoy that in a story. But I wanted things to be very grim and bleak for my characters, but give them a happy ending. I didn't want to completely destroy them.

Tina Koutras (10:45)
Okay.

Okay.

Nicole Holland (10:48)
Just mostly destroy them.

Tina Koutras (10:50)
So you've mentioned that Shadowbound is inspired by magic and creatures from Dungeons and Dragons. How did that influence your world building, characters, and even the mood of the story?

Nicole Holland (10:53)
and

my gosh, it's probably the most influential thing because I started playing Baldur's Gate 3, which was my introduction to D &D. I think I actually started that around the same time I started reading Salvatore because he writes D &D books. And I started playing that and all the different terminology, the different types of magic, the different races and classes of characters. I was struggling to figure out how I wanted my world to be in the Darkmoon series. And I knew it.

I knew I wanted fantasy, but then when I read that, said, okay, I high fantasy. I want more extensive world building. I want this to be like Baldur's Gate and be like D &D. So I started diving into that, reading more D &D books, playing that game obsessively, which I still do. So it was really the turning point because I was doing my world building for the Dark Moon series and I didn't really have a direction yet. And I was researching things.

And then that game, I started playing that game and it just locked me in and I did a bunch of research and I figured out what I wanted to do with my classes and my races and everything like that. that D &D made the world of the Darkmoon series what it is. So it was probably the most influential thing.

Tina Koutras (12:14)
That's amazing. It's definitely close to my heart as well. I've played D &D my whole life. Paul and I met playing D &D. So it's kind of the, it's definitely close to our hearts too. So I love that aspect of your book.

Nicole Holland (12:20)
Yeah. I love that.

Yeah. Do you

guys play in person or you play online?

Tina Koutras (12:31)
Just in person. We

originally, we spent a lot of time playing with some friends when we were younger. And we kind of moved all over the place and it was just ourselves. But we had multiple characters, the story was huge and it was like a 20 year campaign. So it was...

Nicole Holland (12:40)
Mm-hmm.

love

that, I wanna join an in-person group so bad, but I don't know how to even go about finding that.

Tina Koutras (12:51)
well, maybe this interview will help. I see it.

Nicole Holland (12:53)
Yeah, I actually, have the player's handbook back here that I found it at Half Price Books

for $24. And I'm like, give me that, I'm gonna learn. I wanna figure out how to do everything in this world, so.

Tina Koutras (13:06)
That's an older one, I think, is it? Or is that a newer one? It looks like the second one, second edition. Yeah. That's fun. And you know what? That's the best thing about playing. There's just like in book writing, there are plotters and pantsers in D &D. There are rule followers and then there are storytellers and there's room for everybody.

Nicole Holland (13:08)
Yeah, I think it's the first one. Or maybe the second. Yeah. I gotta figure out. I still don't know what I'm doing. I'm just buying things that have to do with D &D.

Yeah.

Tina Koutras (13:33)
It's the best thing about an imagination. It's not locked in. going back to your storyline, did you find it a little bit more challenging to balance the darker elements with the romantic elements of your story?

Nicole Holland (13:34)
Yeah.

Eh.

I did it personally because I like the dark and bleak stuff. I did have some readers that would tell me like, man, I just these characters can't catch a break. And this is pretty, pretty bleak outlook. And but that's what I like. I like that grim dark world like in Game of Thrones. I like that even when the characters succeed or win, it's kind of like the best of two bad options. I like to really put them through it.

before they get their happy ending. So I found it pretty easy. I know some people were like, man, this was an emotional stressor. had to put it down a little bit or for a little bit, but I like that kind of stuff. So it was easy for me. I enjoy that.

Tina Koutras (14:18)
you

So for listeners that are unfamiliar with Shadowbound, maybe their TBR is about to get a little bit bigger. Can you give us a spoiler free glimpse into the story?

Nicole Holland (14:31)
you

Yes, so like we talked about is D &D inspired dark fantasy romance and it is a story of a witch and a fey that become magically bound when the witch's spell backfires and their lives become tethered and they have to travel across the continent to find the druid who can reverse the spell. So it is a travelogue, they're going from A to B, it's a grumpy sunshine

forced proximity kind of thing. A very, very, very painfully slow burn. So just a heads up. If you want stuff to happen early on, this is not the one.

Tina Koutras (15:14)
That's okay, I tend to find that a lot of people, really don't like that quick romance, like the trope, what's it called? Insta-love, thank you. Yeah, they tend not to love that one because it's unrealistic.

Nicole Holland (15:16)
and

the insta-love? Yeah.

Yeah,

I think it works okay sometimes in contemporary, but sometimes with especially if it's a longer book or a longer fantasy book that and you know, it's all subjective, right? Who people like whatever they like, but I like to if I'm if I'm doing a long book, I want to kind of draw it out a little bit, make the make the readers wait.

Tina Koutras (15:47)
Yeah, exactly. And I do think it can be done right if the character is naive enough.

Nicole Holland (15:51)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. My

female main character is pretty naive, so... But I like that. I wanted her to be naive. I wanted her... I wanted you to kind of be frustrated with her sometimes. I wanted to try to make her... You just want to shake her and be like, why would you do that? I didn't want either of them to be very easy characters, so I think I succeeded in that. I don't know. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (15:56)
Okay.

Watch this.

Well, she's got somewhere to grow at least.

So how did these two characters come to life in your mind? Can we talk a little bit about your process in creating them?

Nicole Holland (16:24)
So characters are very interesting for me because they really they come to me first before the plot and they come to me like a sticker that's just slapped on my brain and it's like okay here you go here's the character go do something with them and I know exactly what they look like I know what they sound like I know what their quirks are I know their eye color and they just that's the only thing about writing that comes to me fully formed and so then I have to give them a story and

I just remember I was in, I was reading a of books quickly and all of them were morally gray male main characters, which I really enjoyed. But I found that they were true to their morally gray stereotype, but they were always doing bad things for the right reasons. And I wanted a morally charcoal, as I call him, male main character who doesn't always do things for the right reasons. He's kind of a jerk.

and he likes to do some very bad things because that's just who he is. I wanted him to be kind of questionable if you thought he was going to be redeemable or not and just more of a complex character rather than always doing the wrong things for the right reasons. Sometimes he just did bad stuff because he's not a great guy, but...

Tina Koutras (17:36)
And what about, no, that's okay. And what about Aurelia? Is Aurelia, how am saying it wrong? Aurelia. What about her?

Nicole Holland (17:36)
I forgot the last part of the question.

Aurelia. Yeah.

So I really struggled with her because she is very optimistic and I am more of a pessimist. So she is actually a combination of one of my really good friends from college and my husband. And so he, like my husband keeps me from being too pessimistic because he's not head in the clouds optimist, but he's more optimistic than I am.

So I struggled with initially making her a little bit more pessimistic. And then I was beta reading a Romantasy for one of my critique partners and her female main character was very much like how I wanted Aurelia to be. I just wasn't writing her that way. I was trying to make her someone she wasn't. And it was almost like her character gave me permission to write a more happy-go-lucky, optimistic, hopeful character.

So that's another reason too why I always encourage people to get to beta read or just read for other people or critique partners or whatever because you never know where you're going to get inspiration and her book really helped me make a character who felt truer to herself than what I was trying to do to my own character.

Tina Koutras (18:35)
That's cool.

She was blocking you, Aurelia was blocking you throughout the process until you figured out who she was.

Nicole Holland (18:56)
Yeah.

Yeah, she was like,

this isn't me. Why are you trying to make me do those things? I was like, well, okay, I guess we'll try something else.

Tina Koutras (19:06)
That's awesome. So the story explores some deep questions like how your experiences shape your outlooks. How much of that theme can you take from your own life and observations?

Nicole Holland (19:11)
Thank

So it was definitely a conscious choice. I wanted it to, I think I said before, exploring the evils of humanity within the safety of fiction. That has always interested me. Game of Thrones was a huge inspo for that. I'm currently reading the books, for reference, I'm talking about the show,

I like the bleak and dark stuff because growing up in a military family, and I'm sure you've seen this too, is you get to see a lot of the bad side of what humanity is capable of, what they're trying to do, the harm people will try to inflict on others. And I worked for the FBI for about 10 years. And so I got to see a lot of the terrible sides of humanity too. What people involved in terrorism and espionage and

bad things with kids and all that kind of stuff. And I wanted to take the realities of how terrible humanity can be and almost amplify it in this fantasy world, just as a way of exploring how the characters would react in a situation if this was real life, if that makes any sense. Trying to take some of the things that I've seen and I've worked and I know of and then...

exploring the what-if side of it in fiction. What if this happened? What if this wasn't stopped? Or what if this changed? How would this work out in the world and with the characters? And I like that part of fantasy is asking the what-if questions and then seeing what happens in the story.

Tina Koutras (20:42)
Wow, that's awesome and powerful. It's a powerful tool. So shadowbound is part of an adventure, part romance and part existential crisis.

Nicole Holland (20:46)
Yeah, certainly.

Mm-hmm.

Tina Koutras (20:55)
What inspired

Aurelia and Vade's physical and emotional journeys?

Nicole Holland (20:59)
I wanted Vade to be very much set in his ways and throughout times in the book where you think he might cave and might come around that he doesn't. He's a very difficult person to persuade that his way is not the only way and it might not be the right way. And Aurelia, wanted... she really was the optimism to my

pessimism because I would let some things from work and previous jobs and stuff like that bog my worldview down of humanity and I wanted her to be the light that I sometimes wish that I could be and she is heavily based off of my friend from college that I mentioned who it doesn't matter what terrible thing happens to her she is always I mean of course she has moments where

Tina Koutras (21:39)
Mm-hmm.

Nicole Holland (21:48)
she gives into that, but she's always positive, always knowing it'll get better. This isn't the end, things like that. And sometimes I was not like that. So I look at her and wanted her to be Aurelia or them to be each other. So I wanted Aurelia to be the light in the story and not, and really counter Vade's darkness and have that back and forth and see what would happen.

if bright light meets super dark, how would that work? How would that interact?

Tina Koutras (22:17)
and being stuck together. I do love Vade's name. That's a really cool name.

Nicole Holland (22:18)
Yeah, being physically bound to one another. How would that pan out? Yep.

Thank you. I like it.

I have a thing for V names apparently. I have another character, male character whose name starts with V. It's just, it's a sexy letter and I like it. Something about it.

Tina Koutras (22:36)
Hahaha!

Okay, so fantasy romance kind of thrives on tropes. What's the one trope you always want to write about? Or you always like to involve?

Nicole Holland (22:41)
Thank

I

love the one bed trope. I love it because there are so many different ways that it can play out. The only part I don't like is if two characters end up in completely separate rooms. Somebody can be on the floor if they want to be, it's not my favorite, but there's so many different things that can happen and that's usually accompanied by the nightmare trope, which is another favorite of mine, particularly if the male main character is the one that has the nightmare.

because usually that's kind of the first time we see them really being vulnerable. But yeah, I love the one bed trope for its possibilities and the tension and it's just so much fun to write.

Tina Koutras (23:25)
Okay, so we always talk about favorites and least favorites. So what's your least favorite?

Nicole Holland (23:26)
Okay.

My

would say probably miscommunication. I don't mind it if it's there for a little bit, but if it derails the entire story with just an easy conversation that could be had between the characters, then I'm not a huge fan. Because I like the overhearing something out of context, but if it goes too long, then I'm usually not a fan of that. But there's not too many that I deeply

dislike. I think there's so many authors who can do so many cool things with all the tropes that you never know what you're gonna like. So I try not to close myself off to anything in particular.

Tina Koutras (24:08)
Yeah, I agree with that because originally I had thought that my least favorite was the third act breakup And like you just said, it's often a miscommunication that can get resolved very quickly. And if the author does it right, it's very easy to fall in love with it or enjoy it for what it is.

Nicole Holland (24:20)
Yeah.

Tina Koutras (24:27)
So if Shadowbound had a theme song for each of the main characters, what would Aurelia and Vades be?

Nicole Holland (24:32)
I think, so I think Vade would be a big Sleep Token fan. I don't know if you're familiar with Sleep Token. So they're a metal band from Britain, I believe, but they do have a lot of slow songs and a lot of dealing with that kind of internal angst. So there's a song called Euclid that I always think of that being Vade's song when he

Tina Koutras (24:38)
No, but I'm going to be after tonight. I'll look it up.

Nicole Holland (24:57)
is kind of coming to terms with his inner turmoil. And then I think Aurelia would have to be pocket full of sunshine, Natasha Bedingfield. She's just happy-go-lucky and Vade's like this. And he's all internal sadness and Aurelia's bright and happy. And I think those two would probably be the songs.

Tina Koutras (25:06)
you

That would be a funny post too.

Nicole Holland (25:18)
Yeah,

I had a reader tell me that the... it's not a spoiler, but the journey of Vade and Aurelia together reminded her of Shrek and Donkey walking through the forest with Aurelia being Donkey and just always trying to make light. Yeah, that is a nice boulder. Like, just putting a positive spin on everything and Vaid is the grumpy ogre that is like, shut up!

Tina Koutras (25:34)
And tomorrow we're having waffles!

Nicole Holland (25:45)
Just shut up. It was the perfect analogy. And that's, think of that with those two songs too. It was so good. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (25:50)
That's awesome.

Okay, so back to your writing. That's okay. Good laughter is always good for that. So the creatures in Shadowbound are inspired by Dungeons and Dragons. Was there a creature or part of the magic system that you loved creating the most?

Nicole Holland (25:56)
Yeah, I'm sorry. Derailing a little bit.

Yup.

I would say yes to both of those. As far as the creatures go, I have animals that live in a specific part of this world where they look like they're kind of ghost-like. You can see their bones coming through their bodies in various places, but they're still alive. And they have milky eyes and their bones will glow different colors according to their mood.

So you have red when they're really angry, you blue when they're calm, things like that. And I like the idea of almost these zombie-like creatures that are alive but look dead, because you can see their skeleton through their bodies. But I loved color theory and the psychology of color. And so I liked trying to play with that as far as using the colors for emotions, which translates into the magic system where I use

white light for sorcery light and in this world sorcery is a very bad thing and so I wanted to play off of white usually being the color of goodness and purity and having it be the exact opposite here instead of you you got the really dark red lightsaber or whatever it is which is still cool but I wanted to twist that and make something that looked like it might be holy be very unholy so I like playing around with color with creatures and magic systems

Tina Koutras (27:20)
Yeah.

Ah-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-

Okay, so that was both the magic system is color based as well.

Nicole Holland (27:33)
you

yes it is. So like druids when they cast magic, it's this kind of greenish color and then their eyes are also a greenish yellow so you can tell that they're a druid based on some other factors too, but kind of playing on what you think would make sense, like green for a druid and then what you think wouldn't make sense, like white for sorcery, light and things like that. And then creating the

sorcery weapons making them really light. Usually you have, you know, a giant all-powerful weapon, but you can have really tiny weapons that are infused with this sorcery light that are kind of unassuming, but kind of just playing off the different themes of color and how you would think it goes and might not think it goes.

Tina Koutras (28:21)
So it's intentionally, so while the person's reading, they're going to have their own suspicions about what's coming next.

Nicole Holland (28:30)
Maybe, maybe. kind of,

don't want to be super obvious, but kind of a little obvious in some things.

Tina Koutras (28:37)
Yeah.

So with regards to, Vade and Aurelia's, bond, their relationship as, both emotional and magical, it really grows throughout the story. Did you have a favorite part or moment in their interaction that you can tell us without spoiling anything?

Nicole Holland (28:47)
you

Without spoiling it.

Yes, I had. I love those scenes where the characters have to pretend to be interested in each other to accomplish a task. And that was easier for Aurelia and it was difficult for Vade. And so there's a scene kind of in the middle, probably just past the 50 % mark that they have to act like that. And that's probably my favorite.

Tina Koutras (29:07)
Hehe.

Nicole Holland (29:20)
My favorite thing because it, without using words to really reveal each other's feelings that much, it's more about body language and what's going on

And I, cause I'm a sucker for tension and I like that where nobody's saying what they want to say, but their bodies are telling and things like that. So I'd probably say that without being able to give anything away.

Tina Koutras (29:32)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha

Very cool.

Okay, that's cool. So if you could live in the world of Shadowbound for one day, what would you want to do? Or would you just hide in terror?

Nicole Holland (29:52)
I'd be out there with all my weapons just

going to town. how many can I get? So I love three. okay. I love scimitars and that's because of R.A. Salvatore's books where his main character wields dual scimitars. Just the, I really think a curved blade is really cool. It's very aesthetically pleasing.

Tina Koutras (29:56)
Okay, so what weapon would you be wielding? We gotta ask that now.

We'll give you three.

Nicole Holland (30:17)
So I'd probably carry a scimitar. I'd want some kind of small knife. And I really like halberds I think halberds are shaped in a really cool way. And I would just want to beat the ever loving daylights out of somebody with it. So it's a lot of weaponry to carry on myself. Yeah, exactly. I got a small, medium, and just absolutely devastating. And I'm happy. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (30:24)
you

Go big or go home.

Yeah. Okay.

So back to the original question. What would you do if you were in that world for one day?

Nicole Holland (30:48)
So I actually plan to write this in the third book, which would be what type of character I would want to be, but I'll save that. But I think I would actually like to spend a lot of time in the Greywood because it's a very interesting place. It has the creatures that I was talking about with the skeleton coming through and the animals and there's pixies and there's the big bad of the Greywood. And I think being in that realm where magic works differently would be really interesting.

Tina Koutras (31:05)
Mm-hmm.

Nicole Holland (31:17)
So I'd probably just fight for my life in a forest and see if I could make it out. I think that would be fun.

Tina Koutras (31:22)
Well, we would have to hope that

there's a caveat that you get to come back no matter what.

Nicole Holland (31:26)
Yeah, hopefully

one of my three weapons can help me out. I don't know. Or I just get lucky.

Tina Koutras (31:32)
So earlier in the interview, I mentioned that there are two different kinds of writers, plotters and pantsers. Given the fact that you made most of your, your journey very public, I'm going to guess that you're a plotter. Would you agree?

Nicole Holland (31:48)
Yes, you would be right. I like

to say that I'm about 85 to 90 percent plotter and 10 to 15 percent pantser. I'd like to build out where I'm going because I'm not somebody who can just start and find it along the way. I need a roadmap and while I don't build everything out, I build most of it out before I even start writing. It's usually...

I always think of things in terms of scenes and it's actually the ending that I don't really know. I know the beginning and the middle and then a few scenes in between and I kind of leave it open to say, how are they going to get from A to B or D to E or whatever it is? I'll leave that open to pants, but I have to plot the majority of it. Otherwise, who knows where I'll go? Who knows what'll happen? I'll just derail and write 8,000 words that don't mean anything. So I gotta have some structure.

Tina Koutras (32:31)
Thanks.

So,

so do you have the stereotypical kind of crime scene board on your wall or are you a digital planner?

Nicole Holland (32:40)
you

you

so I am, like to physically write things down. It helps my memory and I just enjoy physically writing. I do my world building on the computer, but I will, I have a whiteboard over here that I, I've got my whole act one for a different book written over here, but I like to piece it together. It helps me think better. So I'll write ideas on the computer cause I can do that really quickly. And then I'll put it together like a puzzle in a notebook. I've started doing one notebook.

per book that I'm writing, so everything is right there. And then I'll work out any problems on the whiteboard. I did used to do sticky notes because I have a book that I haven't done anything with. It's like a hundred and fifty thousand word epic travelogue. And I kept putting sticky notes of where all the scenes were happening and they were color coded because there was six POVs and so many characters. And that that looked like a crime scene and it got very overwhelming. So.

Also sticky notes don't really stick to the wall that well either, so I would come down and five of them would be on the ground and I'm like, well, I don't know where that went. I don't know where they were in the story. So I had to stop doing sticky notes.

Tina Koutras (33:45)
Thanks.

Yeah, you said kind of have a little bit of an amalgamation of chaos in that one.

Nicole Holland (33:58)
Yeah, it was well,

but that's what I like too is because I'm a new writer. I was trying so many different things to figure out what would work. Are sticky notes going to work for me? No, but I know that now. Is handwriting better? Is mapping it on a some type of computer program better? So I love to try things and see what works and see what doesn't. So now I kind of feel like I've gotten in the groove. It's only been two years since I've been writing, but I've

Tina Koutras (34:08)
Yeah

Nicole Holland (34:25)
I've tried so many things that I think I know now what roughly what does and doesn't work for me.

Tina Koutras (34:30)
And is Shadowbound a two-year process for you? Or was there a few in between?

Nicole Holland (34:36)
There were some others in between, some other smaller books that I had released, a short story collection and a novella. And then this one was the first one that I did, Extensive World Building. I did a lot of promotion and marketing for it. And I pretty much wrote all of it on live streams on TikTok.

Tina Koutras (34:53)
So what's your writing space and your kind of little rituals, your favorite drinks and things that you have to do to set the mood?

Nicole Holland (35:04)
Ooh, this is my favorite, because I'm in my writing space right now. So I have to have lights. I got to have warm lighting to set the tone. And then I've got to have candles to set the scent and the mood by Candlelore They look great back here. I always have. Yeah, I always have a candle. It really does help. And I remember learning that in college that scent helps with memory. So if you're studying, You should have something.

Tina Koutras (35:19)
I'll pay you later.

you

Nicole Holland (35:31)
like a candle and then stuff like that. But it helps set the mood too. So I'm in my office. I have lights everywhere over here that you can't see. But I like a dark space with very warm lighting. That's how I kind of get in the mood. And my favorite drink is a vitamin water, the triple X acai blueberry pomegranate. I think that's what it's called. I usually have that. I've been trying to drink less caffeine.

Tina Koutras (35:45)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Nicole Holland (35:56)
So I just replacing it with sugar. But I just get all kinds of lights, get it turned off. I never have the big light on in the room. That would be a sin. Just flood my room with warm lighting and candles and a cold vitamin water

Tina Koutras (36:08)
and any sound that you associate with it.

Nicole Holland (36:10)
yes,

I am so, I can't even believe I forgot that because I'm such a music freak. I have to have music playing constantly. And if I'm really dialed in to, if I'm drafting and writing, I cannot listen to anything with lyrics. It has to be instrumental. So I have classical playlist, usually the sad classical music with the piano or the violin and the cello that makes you cry. That's what I love.

Tina Koutras (36:35)
Hahaha!

Nicole Holland (36:36)
I sad classical or I have some playlists that I've curated on Spotify for specific books. I kind of wax and wane between very calm music and then metal and then 90s country and then random things in between. So I can be all over the place.

Tina Koutras (36:52)
So

do you, Vade and Aurelia have different music that you play when you're writing a longer piece about them or is it just kind of whatever's playing sets the mood for you?

Nicole Holland (37:05)
Sometimes it's whatever's playing because it'll kind of fade into the background if I'm really into the scene, but specifically if I'm trying to write a sad scene, it's not so much character specific, it's more scene specific. So if it's a sad scene, I want to put on very sad music. If it's an adventure chase scene, I want to put on very upbeat, like it sounds like somebody would be chasing you kind of music. So it's more about setting the tone of the scene.

Tina Koutras (37:17)
Mm-hmm.

Nicole Holland (37:33)
But it really does help. And I will just put the same song on repeat until I finish the paragraph or whatever I'm writing. And it does help get in the zone.

Tina Koutras (37:39)
cool.

Awesome. So, self-publishing can be tough but a rewarding process. And I know that you've documented your journey through that part of it as well. What's the biggest challenge that you've experienced with it?

Nicole Holland (37:57)
Marketing is so... it's so tough and I'm sure you know as a business owner. Yeah, it's... well, I love creating the content for the marketing, but trying to figure out how to get it in front of the right people... I don't like the analytical side of that and somebody said something to me the other day that... it's very obvious, but it clicked. It was like you're the creative right brain side, so you like making the marketing materials, but...

Tina Koutras (38:00)
Tell me about it.

Nicole Holland (38:24)
the analytical logical left brain side is the one that has to market. And I'm like, yeah, I don't like any of that. I keep me over here in the creative section, but I don't like doing the numbers and the, how do I get this out? And a lot of it is luck when it comes to marketing. I still haven't figured out the algorithm because TikTok is the only thing that I really market on. And I've been doing this for two years and sometimes my videos will get.

Tina Koutras (38:43)
Mm-hmm.

Nicole Holland (38:47)
50,000 views and it took me 20 seconds to make them. And then sometimes I get capped at 300 and it took me an hour and a half to edit it. So I don't know. It's just, you never know. I feel like I'm just throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks. But that's probably the most difficult part.

Tina Koutras (38:56)
Ha!

Yeah, yeah.

I think there's probably quite a few people who feel exactly that way.

Nicole Holland (39:11)
Yeah,

it's it's tough. And it's you know, I always think about it in terms of nobody owes me anything. No, I don't I am not owed anyone's money for buying my book. It's it's a luxury thing. It's not a necessity, right? It's not water. It's not food. So I have to say, okay, I understand that I'm going to push this video out 15 times to this group of people. And I can't get frustrated that I don't get a ton of sales because

It's a luxury purchase and in today's economy, you know, I don't, I don't get frustrated. People have other things going on. I get more frustrated in the sense of just not getting enough viewership for the things that I'm pushing out. Cause I guess what I'm doing is not working with the algorithm metrics. but I try not to take it too personally because people have choices where they're going to spend their money. And if they spend it on me, I should be incredibly thankful and grateful. And I am.

Tina Koutras (39:56)
Mm-hmm.

Nicole Holland (40:07)
So I'll keep on chugging and keep trying to figure out the algorithm and maybe one day I'll get there. Yeah, maybe one day it's going to click and I'll just who knows.

Tina Koutras (40:13)
I feel the same way.

So we love chatting about book boyfriends and fantasy crushes. Are there any traits from your real life inspiration that you snuck into your character? You said that Aurelia is more the happy-go-lucky of your husband, but do you want to expand a little on it?

Nicole Holland (40:32)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, she's the combo of my friend and my husband. If they were one person, I feel like that would be her. Where, and she leans more toward my college friend who, know, sometimes she'll send me a text that she's gallivanting somewhere off in Europe by herself. I'm like, oh my gosh, you're making me so scared right now. Because I would never do that. I am the pessimist that says something bad is going to happen all the time. So trying to...

To bring them together to make her was a lot of fun. Vade was more of just an exploration of how can I make this character darker than gray? How can I make him charcoal? And very much inspired by Game of Thrones. Not so much anybody in my real life. More any Game of Thrones character probably. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (41:23)
Pretty close. He definitely

doesn't have any qualms about cutting the ties of specific characters, does he? He was actually the very first book that I ever read where someone who you thought was a main character doesn't make it. Like, I don't think that's a spoiler. Like, we're good.

Nicole Holland (41:31)
Nope, none at all.

Yeah.

Not this many years later, no. Yeah. No,

was great. mean, to do that and to be so successful still doing that shows you that people want these really complex dynamics and things that you don't think are gonna happen that do happen.

Tina Koutras (42:00)
That's right. He definitely shocked quite a few people the first season of Game of Thrones, that's for sure. So if you had a fantastical writing partner or a mascot, what would it be? So a dragon, an owl, something of your own.

Nicole Holland (42:04)
Yeah. Yep.

Well, I would say horse since I rode horses and had horses for a long time, but I feel like I'd want to branch out. If I could have some type of pegasus, that would be really cool. But I think I gotta go dragon. Dragon would just be so much fun.

Tina Koutras (42:29)
You can have lots of communication with a dragon. A horse doesn't even even the Pegasus. don't think I've ever read a book where a Pegasus talks. You? So we'd have to go dragon. I mean, I've already got mine. Keeps me company.

Nicole Holland (42:31)
Yeah.

Yeah, no, I don't think I have either. Yeah, I just they're so cool looking. It's like why, you know, if I'm gonna imagine I'm gonna imagine that and I have I

have plans for dragons and later books that I'm really excited for. So yeah.

Tina Koutras (42:53)
yay, that's exciting. OK, so the Dark Moon series

is described as an interdependent book series. Should we expect more stories in this universe or with these characters? Like, what does that mean?

Nicole Holland (43:08)
Yes, so I referred to the books as interconnected standalones. So you can read any of them out of order. And it will still make sense because they will focus on two different main characters every time. Or two or three, just different main characters every time. But everything is set in the same world. So

there will be kind of Easter eggs and you might see some characters from previous books in the background or they might be in the forefront having dialogue. I'm not done with Vade and Aurelia yet so they'll make another appearance. I've dropped a few Easter eggs for books two and three already in Shadowbound so I wanted to make it where if I was going to spend enough time, I mean if I was going to spend so much time on world building, I didn't want to just use it up on one book.

My plan is to write an infinite number of books in this world, but have them focus on different main characters every time. So I'm very excited. I've got five in my head so far. We'll see if they change along the way.

Tina Koutras (44:01)
Okay, that's cool. Very cool.

I kind of feel like your

ACOTAR lesson taught you that. So you can start on book two and still make it back to book one and not lose anything. So I ask this one all the time if Shadowbound were turned into a movie.

Nicole Holland (44:17)
Yeah, yeah. It's like, wait, did I miss anything? Like, now you'll figure it out. It's fine. That's probably where I got it from.

Tina Koutras (44:33)
or a TV series, do you have an actor for Vade and for Aurelia in your mind who meets that look?

Nicole Holland (44:41)
So I think, so Vade very much physically looks like Jason Momoa in my mind, in the way that I describe him. So I guess a little bit younger Jason Momoa. And then Aurelia is kind of a combination of, I picture her like, what's her name? Christina Hendrick from Good Girls and Mad Men, Like a little bit younger Christina Hendrick. So I think physically,

Tina Koutras (44:58)
Mm-hmm.

Nicole Holland (45:05)
they both look like those two characters. My favorite director is Christopher Nolan and he does direct bleak movies. I don't know if he would be great for Shadowbound though, but I'm a big fan of Nolan's so it might have to be them.

Tina Koutras (45:18)
Okay. So you

already got the director and everything lined up.

Nicole Holland (45:24)
Yeah,

but I do really like Tarantino too and I like the gratuitous violence that I have in my world so he could make it really interesting also.

Tina Koutras (45:31)
And yes, definitely gratuitous violence there.

Nicole Holland (45:32)
you

Yeah,

my mom hates that. My dad and I love all the bloody action fighting movies. She's like, why do you guys enjoy this? It's really cool. I don't know what that says, but it's interesting to watch it behind the screen where it's not happening to you. Because it always comes back for me the what if thing. Like, well, what if my hand got chopped off? Do I think I could make it? Do I think I would get it would get infected or whatever? And I like

Tina Koutras (45:42)
You

Yeah

Nicole Holland (46:02)
thinking about those things and my mom is the complete opposite. She's like, I don't understand you and your father, but like, we're having a great time. Give me every Denzel movie and any bloody action movie and we're all about it.

Tina Koutras (46:06)
I'm

So what are some of your fantasy projects? So you said you've got like five irons in the fire right now. Is there any of them that you want to talk about?

Nicole Holland (46:24)
So the second one I've already talked about on my social media is called On Vengeful Seas and it is a pirate adventure of friendship and love and I'm trying to remember my own tagline for it. I just kind of sealed it the other day. I think I said it is a pirate adventure of friendship and love across

Tina Koutras (46:32)
Hmm.

Nicole Holland (46:47)
sea dragon infested waters where the lust for jewels is insatiable and the sweetness of revenge longs to be tasted. That's what it was, I think. So it's like, yeah, I really wanted it and I'm going to be bringing out the dragons more for that. I actually think you will appreciate it too because it's very subtle and I don't think anybody would recognize this but the dragons, I have dragons of the air and dragons of the sea and they're all

Tina Koutras (46:57)
That's perfect. I'm in.

Nicole Holland (47:15)
It's gonna sound weird. They're all based off of military aircraft with like the things they're capable of. So I have one air dragon that's like an A-10 warthog where it can shoot out a burst of whatever it is right now. Yeah and so I don't think anybody will really pick up on that unless I say it but it's really fun. So now I'm researching submarines and if I can if I can take their characteristics and make them put them into my sea dragons.

Tina Koutras (47:26)
Flame? Yeah.

Nicole Holland (47:41)
I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just having fun trying to figure out if it'll work. So.

Tina Koutras (47:45)
It definitely sounds like you're having fun. And that's, what makes it actually worth doing, in my opinion. Cause when it

Nicole Holland (47:51)
yeah,

discovery and the exploration of it all is fun.

Tina Koutras (47:54)
Yeah, for sure. lastly, for readers that are just discovering Shadowbound, what's the thing that you would hope that they can take away from it?

Nicole Holland (47:58)
Yeah.

I would say to not let the bleakness of some situations or the world in general at certain times

get so dark that you kind of lose yourself to it and you kind of become just as hopeless and just as lost as sometimes it can feel like what's going on in the world. And that's why I want to put my characters through the wringer in every book in this series, but it's not it's not really a spoiler, but every book will have a happy ending. So they're going to go through it, but it's still going to work out and to not to not let the pessimism

way down on you so much that you just kind of give up and to keep those positive people in your life and to not be so rigid and kind of let people show you that there might be a better way to do something or a better way to think about something.

Tina Koutras (48:50)
Awesome. And yeah, that's a good takeaway. Alright, so the rapid fire magic round. These are the quick questions. I think you might have answered one or two of them, but that's okay. So enemies to lovers or friends to lovers?

Nicole Holland (48:59)
Yeah.

Enemies to lovers. I want to feel the hatred and the angst. I love it. I like friends to lovers in real life, but fantasy life, enemies.

Tina Koutras (49:09)
Magic.

Yeah.

Okay, so magic items that you would want for yourself.

Nicole Holland (49:18)
I think I really would like that scimitar. I would like if it could burst into flame anytime I unsheathed it and it was just this fire weapon that I could wield.

Tina Koutras (49:21)
Yeah

That sounds awesome. What's

harder to write, fight scenes or love scenes?

Nicole Holland (49:33)
love scenes. I love some violence and I love some fighting and that just comes... I mean, not real life, but that comes easier to me than making sure all the emotion is there. I just want to fight, have my characters fight.

Tina Koutras (49:38)
you

So if Aurelia and Vade could travel to another fantasy world, where would you put them?

Nicole Holland (49:54)
I think they would do well in any D &D type world, any Dungeons & Dragons realm, just with the similarities of the characters and the different people you meet. I think they would thrive there. They probably wouldn't do well in a contemporary setting.

Tina Koutras (50:06)
Sounds good.

Maybe not so much in the romantasy world either. And I think we've already talked about D &D, so that question is out. But where can people find you?

Nicole Holland (50:12)
Yeah.

So I am on TikTok. My official username is bookish_heartbreak, but I go by author Nicole Holland there. Also on Instagram as the same username. I just don't use it that often. I'm up on Goodreads. I'm up on Amazon. And right now those are really the four main places where I am. I'm trying to get into Twitch and Tome. I've been on there a little bit, but there's just so many places to choose from that I...

I can't do all of it. So I'm just trying to do a few right now. But TikTok is my main platform.

Tina Koutras (50:53)
Yeah, for sure.

And do you have a copy of Shadowbound close at hand so you can show everybody?

Nicole Holland (51:01)
Yes. Maybe. Hold on one second.

So this is one of my proof copies. I don't have my full copy, but this is what it looks like. And then this will make sense. Thank you. This will make sense more when you read it, but that's what it looks like. Thank you for saying it was a beautiful cover.

Tina Koutras (51:09)
It's a beautiful cover.

I just got my copy.

It is a beautiful cover. I love the coloring of it. It's very, very nice cover.

Nicole Holland (51:19)
Thank you. Well, thank you

for even wanting to read it and I appreciate your support.

Tina Koutras (51:25)
I do really want to read it. am currently halfway through Quicksilver and it's, really? It's very good.

Nicole Holland (51:30)
yeah, I haven't read that one yet. Yeah, I just keep

hearing about it and it's, I've got, you know, 12 different books going and I'm like, just finish one before you buy another book.

Tina Koutras (51:39)
I have

a lot. I got a lot for Christmas, so I have a very large list to get through. It's my goal to get them all done before next Christmas. And then all you authors keep adding new ones to my list. yeah. Awesome. So you'll also be able to be found on our webpage for this podcast and for

Nicole Holland (51:49)
I love that. That's a great goal.

Yeah. darn.

Tina Koutras (52:03)
hopefully for your book as well.

Nicole Holland (52:06)
Yes, thank you so much. I'm so excited. Thank you for even wanting to talk to me and even caring what I have to say. I'm such a small author and the fact that you're interested and people are interested in talking to me about books is just the most surreal thing. So thank you for the opportunity.

Tina Koutras (52:07)
So.

I genuinely feel like your process and what you went through was like the catalyst for me having the courage to say, yeah, yeah, I can do this. I got this. I'm already in the writing phase. I've done all the world building. I think when you recommended Saves the Cat writes a novel, that was the beginning of my, okay, I got this. So that was what months ago now.

Nicole Holland (52:32)
You can do it. Have you started drafting?

Love that.

Yes.

Tina Koutras (52:50)
So the plot's all laid out and everything's going, it's a process for sure. And like I said, it's all about doing what you love. And I really respect people who get out there and do what they love. So thank you so much for joining me tonight. And I can't wait to read Shadowbound.

Nicole Holland (52:54)
I love that.

Yeah.

You too. Thank you for having me.

Tina Koutras (53:11)
and I hope others get the opportunity to now know that it's out there for them to try out as well.

Nicole Holland (53:18)
It is. And it's coming out in audiobook in late February or early March. I forgot about that.

Tina Koutras (53:23)
So

I pour candles all the time. So I rely very heavily on audio books because my time for reading is like this big and my time for listening is huge. that's awesome.

Nicole Holland (53:29)
Yeah.

Yeah, I'm so

excited. It's my first audiobook and it's going to be dual narration. So we have a male narrator and female narrator and the female narrator is actually doing lives right now on TikTok and Instagram where she's recording herself recording the audiobook. So

Tina Koutras (53:45)
Thanks.

wow.

Nicole Holland (53:56)
you want to listen to that or anybody wants to listen to that. It's Andy Eloise. And she does it usually in the morning and at night. I think she's on Eastern Time. But she's about halfway through the book now. And it's been really cool to watch her do that live. Yeah. Yeah, it's so crazy. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (54:09)
No doubt how very magical for you to listen to somebody else. Yeah, that's awesome that you've got

the audio book coming out. I think that's fantastic.

Nicole Holland (54:20)
Yeah, I completely forgot about it too and it's going on and I didn't, I just, I'm just so excited. This is such a cool thing. It's just crazy that it's all even happening. So I can't wait.

Tina Koutras (54:31)
Awesome. Alright, so

thank you so much for joining us on Ink and Flame and I really, really can't wait. Thank you so much.

Nicole Holland (54:39)
Thank you, I appreciate it.