Ink and Flame Episode #11
CW Rose: Author of Oceansong

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Transcription

Tina Koutras (00:00)
Welcome to Ink and Flame I'm your host, Tina Koutras, and I'm sitting down with CW Rose to talk about Ocean Song. Hi, Christine, how are you?

CW Rose (00:08)
Hi Tina, thank you so much. I am well, happy, happier now that I'm here. Thank you for having me on.

Tina Koutras (00:12)
Awesome!

I'm excited to hear your story. So welcome to the podcast. You chose a very different name, CW Rose. What's the significance behind your pen name?

CW Rose (00:15)
Yay! I'm excited to tell it.

So when I was drafting, this is my very first novel that I queried that sent out the age of the publishers and it never got representation, but when I was writing that I knew I wanted a pen name. Mostly because I didn't want people to pick up my books or see it a certain way just because I was like a certain gender or a certain ethnicity and I wanted somebody to be totally neutral. I did not have one until I want to say about 10 years ago or so.

when an old friend's son of mine came up to me who was a huge basketball fan and he loved like the player Derek Rose. And he started calling me Christina Rose for fun. And I thought that was really, really cute. The nickname stuck. I'm like, okay, maybe I can take out the Christina, put CW there, which is actually my legal initials. So CW Rose became my pen name. I like roses, I like paint things, I like red things. I like roses of all colors. So this is perfect.

Tina Koutras (01:08)
Okay.

that's a cool story.

That's a great story.

CW Rose (01:16)
Thank you.

Tina Koutras (01:17)
I like that. And does he know that he's the origin for your story or your your pen name?

CW Rose (01:22)
I don't think so, no. He's all grown up and on his own now, because this was a while ago. I haven't talked to him in a long time, but if I ever talk to him again, I would be like, you know my pen name? That was your inspiration. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (01:31)
that's cool.

Do you feel like using a pen name gives you more creative freedom or perhaps a degree of separation between your personal and professional life?

CW Rose (01:41)
You know what? I thought it would. It doesn't. Because I think most people in my job know that I write books. Now, so... Yeah, mean, there were certain people... Okay, so when I first started writing, there were certain people that I didn't really want knowing that I'd written a book, and to ask me about my past without going into further details. And I wanted to keep my personal and professional life private, but I forgot that I have coworkers following me on social media. So when I made my book announcement, I'm like, oh, shoot I probably should tell them.

before they see it and they're like, what is going on? So now they know, my family knows, people and the words kind of spreading at my job now. People approaching me now say, you wrote a book. Why didn't you tell me about it I'm trying not to spread it all over the place. I still try to keep a degree of professionalism. Not really working right now, but everyone's been supportive and kind. So I'm okay with that. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (02:11)
You

Ha ha ha ha.

Well, that's good. What do

you do for a career, if you don't mind me asking?

CW Rose (02:34)
absolutely. I am a physical therapist. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (02:36)
very cool.

You write about ordinary Asian women in extraordinary situations. What sparked this recurring theme in your stories?

CW Rose (02:45)
Okay, so I love high fantasy as much as the next person. I love epic fantasy. I love secondary world fantasy. But what actually made me, but I guess what interested me even more was like, what would happen if there was fantasy in the real world? Right? I'm like, you know, how, like, would we react if we did find mermaids? How would we react if there was a portal to another world? What would happen if a dragon flew overhead like right now? Like what would happen? You know, how would like the police react? How would authorities react? How would the government react? And that to me was super interesting.

Tina Koutras (03:05)
Yeah.

Right.

CW Rose (03:12)
So there's always an element of the real world in most of my stories, like an ocean song and it's based in real world Alaska, but the undersea world is like a fantastical world as well. So I try to kind of mix it a little bit of both. The work in progress I'm working on now is also like kind of like a portal fantasy, which is kind of set in the real world and then this portal to another world as well.

Tina Koutras (03:21)
Okay.

Very cool. That's neat. Were there any real life women who inspired the characters that are in your books?

CW Rose (03:31)
Yeah, and I think that's so cool. Thank you.

I like to think there were a few. So I like to say that there are aspects of everyone I've ever met in my characters. I've met a lot of people. I'm a healthcare provider. So I've worked with a lot of people. I've worked also, like I've had a lot of colleagues, a lot of patients. A lot of people go in and out of my life and I love to hear their story. So I pick up pieces of their story and this and this. like, oh, I can use this in one of my characters. So I have to say that Angie, my main character,

She is like prickly, she's snarky, but she's like very caring and very loving inside. She was actually inspired by a couple of my colleagues who I looked up to and respected who were like really strong women. They were assertive. They were not afraid to stand up for themselves. So I put those, so I ended up putting those traits in Angie. I did not do it intentionally, but I guess that's what happened. Mia, her sister, I guess is more based off of me because she kind of starts the story.

Tina Koutras (04:25)
Yeah.

CW Rose (04:31)
I'm kind of in a not a great situation without spoiling anything, I'm trying to dispel stuff. So she finds herself in not a really great situation personally, which then gets worse over time as the story progresses and she ends up finding her confidence at the end of the book to make a better life for her and her daughter. So I kind of, I think I had to reflect my own journey of having low self-esteem and low self-worth and kind of finding my own confidence and worth through the years.

Tina Koutras (04:47)
Okay.

Okay. That's definitely something we'll dive into a little bit more. I like that. So growing up as a third culture child in Singapore must have been fascinating. Are there any specific customs, languages, or cultural experiences from Singapore that have made their way into your books?

CW Rose (04:57)
Yeah.

Sure, happy to.

I love this question because it's really interesting. It made me think about it for a while. So not specifically from Singapore, like as a country. Singapore is a big melting pot. So it's very similar to New York City. And there's like so many ethnic groups there. There actually are three official languages, which is English, Mandarin Chinese, and Tamil, I think, which is like a Hindu based language, I believe. I could be wrong. So I want to say like probably the multiculturalism.

Tina Koutras (05:31)
wow.

CW Rose (05:41)
You know, like I'm very used to living in a colorblind world. I've gone to school and I work with people of like all different ethnic groups, all different backgrounds, all different religions. And like I said before, I love to learn about them. I love to learn about like what their cultures are like. As far as the language, definitely Chinese because I also speak that as one of the, again, it's one of the languages in Singapore. And that's definitely found my way into the book.

Tina Koutras (06:04)
Nice.

CW Rose (06:05)
I try to balance like a good amount of like, maybe not too much, but a little bit. Yeah, they do speak in Mandarin.

Tina Koutras (06:11)
That's cool.

How did you work that in? Like how is it written through? Is it translated? Or like how does it work in your book?

CW Rose (06:20)
So I did it in two ways for Ocean's song and Midnight's song. So her Ocean's song is all from Angie's point of view.

so when she speaks the words, when her father speaks the words, when her sister speaks Mandarin words, you know, or even her like, or even her niece at the time, I had, so I had them say the word and then I tried to translate it in a natural way after that. Like I would say, you know, like maybe the niece would go to Angie's father by, hi gong gong, right? And then Angie would then say after that, and I would just write down, you know, she was, she said, referred to her grandfather or something like that.

Tina Koutras (06:37)
Okay?

Okay,

gotcha.

CW Rose (06:50)
There

are also words in the Myrrh language, which is kind of based off of Mandarin. just kind of took out the tones. Because Mandarin has four different tones. But the words are still the same. And for Midnight's I'm actually putting in a glossary for both the Myrrh words and the words.

Tina Koutras (06:56)
Great.

very cool.

It's funny. I remember seeing an Instagram post where people say that they miss glossaries in books, like name pronunciations and glossaries for certain terminology or places. So you'll make people happy, I guess.

CW Rose (07:11)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and I like that too, because sometimes I'm reading a list and I don't expect the authors to explain everything. You know, that's in a different language. I think that would kind of break the immersion. So having a glossary helps in that sense. You can say, oh, let me see what this word, oh, now I know what this means. Now this means so much more to me.

Tina Koutras (07:24)
Yeah, yeah, because you can go back whenever you need to, right?

Yeah,

exactly. So how did transitioning in New York City shape your identity and does the duality of old home versus new home filter into your writing at all?

CW Rose (07:36)
Okay.

So yeah, that filters more into what manuscript I'm working on right now, which I don't think I can say a whole lot about other than it's another romanticie. But in terms of Oceansong yeah, know, Angie has come from back to Alaska from, you know, her school in Washington state.

But she was kind of born and raised in the United States, so I didn't really find a good way to kind of transition that into her storyline.

Tina Koutras (08:06)
Okay.

CW Rose (08:07)
But she does kind of reflect on the differences between like living in a small town versus a big town. And there are, and there's a point, I believe, I want to say a little before halfway into the book, where she thinks about her mother and how her mother came from Taiwan and she immigrated to the States when she was a teenager and how she had difficulty kind of like in meshing to the culture and the language of the States.

Tina Koutras (08:28)
Okay.

CW Rose (08:29)
I mean, for me personally, I've always spoken English because I went to an international school there and I had to learn English pretty quickly. But I've been told in Singapore that I have an accent, which I don't feel like I do. And there is... Yeah, exactly. They're like, oh, you have an accent. I'm like, I do? They're like, yeah. I'm like, oh, okay.

Tina Koutras (08:41)
We never notice our accents.

Yeah

CW Rose (08:48)
So there's always

like that feeling of, especially being a third culture kid, like I am Chinese American, I grew up in Singapore, I now live in the States. And there's always that duality of never feeling Chinese enough or American enough. Right, so I kind of feel like I'm in the middle of two different cultures. If that makes sense.

Tina Koutras (09:00)
Mm-hmm.

All right.

Yeah, it does make sense. And I do imagine it would have its challenges for sure. I do love that you've incorporated that because it's not very common as far as seeing different cultures in the books that I've read, in the romantasy books that I've read. It's pretty standard. And I love that you've brought that into your writing. I think that's incredible.

CW Rose (09:08)
Mm-hmm.

Thank you so much. That should mean a lot to hear.

Tina Koutras (09:28)
Ocean Song immerses readers into a magical world. Can you share what inspired its settings?

CW Rose (09:28)
Okay.

I love this. so Alaska was good. I came from a trip I took when I was like 10 years old with my family and we had done an Alaskan cruise and I went there like, it's such a different place than what I'm used to seeing because I'm a city girl. I write about small towns, but I am a city girl. So it's gonna a little bit different than what I'm used to.

Tina Koutras (09:48)
Okay.

CW Rose (09:50)
So I remember going there and thinking that it is a really really beautiful really remote place You know the beauty of nature there is amazing Seeing like the wildlife, glaciers, seeing mountains, the crystal clear oceans. I'm like, okay, you know and I left the vacation as a kid, didn't think about Alaska again and When I thought about the ocean song, I'm like, well part of the story is that there are merfolk that exist But they're hiding under the ocean. Like where could they find it people?

wouldn't find them for hundreds of years. And my mind went back to Alaska. I'm like, oh, you know, they could hide up there. The water's really cold, right? And it's definitely more isolated. And I thought it would be more feasible that they would go there and hide, you know, and be kind of hidden there for like over three centuries at the point that Ocean Song starts.

Tina Koutras (10:19)
Right.

Okay, that's exciting.

CW Rose (10:38)
yeah. And as far as under the sea, I am a scuba diver. also a lifeguard. I'm an ocean child. if you ask my family, they will tell you that I've always been more comfortable in the ocean than on land. And I think it's because I have asthma, I have bad knees. So doing land exercise is tough, right? You know, sometimes it would, aggravate my asthma. It would make my knees hurt. So swimming was always a good way for me to get my cardio in.

Tina Koutras (11:00)
Awesome, okay.

CW Rose (11:02)
Yeah, and when I was, sorry, go on.

Tina Koutras (11:04)
No, please keep going.

CW Rose (11:05)
Yeah, so I remember when I was snorkeling and diving, I would just kind of sit there, not sit there, I would swim there and I would wonder, what else lays in the depths, right? Because the sea is the least explored place on Earth. I think we've only explored like 10 % of it. And like, there could be anything, you know, there could be like, like that we don't know about, like new species are being discovered every day. Right, and I'm like, what if there's merfolk

Tina Koutras (11:19)
Hmm.

CW Rose (11:27)
I mean, I don't think they would look like what they look like in Ocean Song or like the Little Mermaid, you know, like what if they existed? And we just never knew, right?

Tina Koutras (11:33)
Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, who knows?

CW Rose (11:38)
Exactly.

Tina Koutras (11:39)
So the underwater world of the book probably involved a significant amount of research. How did you balance crafting the fantasy with making it feel really grounded in reality?

CW Rose (11:50)
So the only fantasy thing about the underwater world is the merfolk, right? And their underworld, everything else, all the, like all the, I guess, geography, topography. I don't know probably where to use for the sea floor. I guess should. So all like, guess the sea floor geography, like the sea mounts, you know, the rock formations, the underwater volcanoes, trenches, those are all real. And so are all the fish species. All the fish species are real. You know, so I would sit there and I would just kind of painstakingly research.

Tina Koutras (11:59)
for you.

CW Rose (12:17)
You know, like Bering Sea, what animals would you find at like 2000 feet or 100 feet? Right. So would go to that much research and I'd be like, okay, now is that, now are there, is there flora growing in this area? Where does this stop growing? Cause there's no more sunlight after a certain amount of, after a certain depth. So I kept all that real. Um, I said the merfolk and their magic is the only thing that's mythical about it. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (12:22)
wow.

Right.

Okay, that's fascinating.

What does self-discovery look like for the leading protagonist in Ocean Song?

CW Rose (12:46)
Alright, so when we meet Angie, at beginning of book, she is very prickly on the outside. She has her walls up. She has not had great experiences with love. She kind of mentions that very briefly in Chapter 3. think it's Chapter 3. And her sister Mia is a hopeless romantic. She loves Titanic. She's named her daughter after the lead female character, Rosie.

And at some point when Angie is with her sister, she kind of thinks like, why should love be hard. This makes no sense to me. Love should be easy. And then she goes to fall in love with a merprince while the people are fighting each other. Right. So she does kind of learn to bring her walls down over time as she gets to know him because he's very kind. He's very sweet. He's very gentle. And she learns that, oh, yeah, you know, like, understand why people maybe fall in love with the wrong person sometimes or

fall in love with people in the wrong circumstance and she starts to open up a little more and she does get a little bit softer I think, toward the end of the book. And a big thing for her, and I think it's something that's quite common unfortunately in my culture and also especially my family, was hiding your emotions. Right? You know, she doesn't really show her emotions, she's quite stoic, she's very like, you know, snarky on the outside. And then at the end, and then toward the end, she starts to let herself cry and let herself feel sad about everything that's happening.

Whereas before she wouldn't. And that was kind of like how I grew up as well.

Tina Koutras (14:01)
Right.

Yeah, that's cool. Okay. I know I'm going based on Hollywood. I've never been to any of the places that you've referenced, China or Singapore or anything like that. But you always see them being depicted as being extremely stoic, that they go through some stuff with a straight face. It's always very...

CW Rose (14:04)
bit so.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Tina Koutras (14:28)
obvious in Hollywood, say.

CW Rose (14:30)
Yeah, and that's interesting to me, right? Because it goes back to the whole thing of being raised in the East but now living in the West. I guess culturally, I was always taught, was always taught to, if you cry, that's weak, don't show your emotions, get a handle on your emotions. So I kind of grew up being very stoic and feeling guilty when I cried. I'm trying to let go of that now, it's still hard.

I don't like to talk about issues, I don't like to vent unless I really need to. I still hold it in and I don't think that's healthy. But my family, and I feel like a lot of my Asian friends' families, they say the same thing. They're like, our family's just taking our issues and they sweep it under the rug and no one talks about it. And this thing is kind of letter fester for generations.

Tina Koutras (14:52)
Yeah.

Yeah. Wow. So were there moments in your life where you connected to this theme and did it guide you through your development of your character's journey?

CW Rose (15:18)
Mm-hmm.

It's interesting they asked because I never intended to have her, I guess, have Angie in that kind like with that kind of growth mindset because I, I don't think she wrote like my own upbringing to hers, right? You know, where she doesn't show her emotions. Her father is very, very stoic, you know, and she's made mention, she's like, oh, you know, he's very serious, but I could see like a feather along his jaw and you know, a twitch on his hand showing that he is feeling something, but he won't, he will never tell it and tell anybody. And my dad's like that. And I hope if you listen to this.

Tina Koutras (15:37)
Right.

Right.

CW Rose (15:51)
If not an insult, dad I love you. You inspired the father of my book

Tina Koutras (15:53)
You

I think that's a good thing.

CW Rose (15:56)
But yeah, so

yes, definitely finding like, you know, like kind of trying to let that go, right? Trying to be okay with talking things out. Try not to be avoidant. Yeah, feeling things. A lot of times I would feel things and I would just go to my room and I would cry, but then I wouldn't see it. Let anyone else see me cry. Right. I will like, I'm just going to go to a corner and go to the bathroom and stay here till my face is dry and then come back out.

Tina Koutras (16:04)
Feeling things. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Wow. That's fascinating. Yeah, I imagine it takes some work too.

CW Rose (16:20)
You're gonna rewire my brain. 20 something years later.

Oh yeah, definately

Tina Koutras (16:25)
So your cinnamon roll men are refreshing and endearing love interests. Are there any particular tropes in romance that you wanted to challenge or subvert when you created these characters?

CW Rose (16:36)
Okay, so before I say anything, I'm not here to yuck anyone's yums, okay? I know like Shadow Daddy's and like Super Macho Male Alpha, know, male main characters are popular and they're popular for a reason. I personally don't like that. And I really don't like it when, I mean, again, personal preference, again, know, if people who are listening is like it, you know, I'm happy for you, I really am. But personally, I prefer men who are a little bit softer or love interests who are a little bit softer.

I don't really find depictions of borderline abuse in relationships, know, of made to sell romantic. I don't find that romantic. I find that very scary and I think it's because I am a survivor. I've been in situation like that in the past and it is very, very scary for me. So that's why I kind of stay away from dark romance.

Tina Koutras (17:14)
Mm-hmm.

Okay, that definitely makes sense.

CW Rose (17:19)
Yeah, like my,

yeah, like my men to be respectful and, you know, soft and I know that's not for everybody. You know, but that's kind of how my, you my characters are.

Tina Koutras (17:24)
Yeah.

I that. I definitely get that. That's awesome.

CW Rose (17:31)
Thank you.

Tina Koutras (17:31)
That you brought it to life, I guess, is what I mean by that's awesome because I don't see that very often. it's, it's, you know, the enemies to lovers trope is, very, very popular and I often enjoy it. But, I don't think I ever looked at it from that perspective, I guess. So I really liked that you gave me that perspective. I like that.

CW Rose (17:37)
Yeah.

sure.

Well, thank you. Yeah, and I think it's hard to balance that because I know when it comes to enemies to lovers, you know, like you want the enemy's part to feel real, right? You know, so maybe the two main characters are not nice to each other, maybe they do assault each other, maybe they do try to kill each other. But I think there is a way to depict that without it being, I guess, like I say, know, almost like abusive sounding or like, you know, the male main character has too much power over the female main character, you know, she doesn't stand a chance.

Tina Koutras (17:58)
Yes.

Mm-hmm.

You

CW Rose (18:15)
I do prefer, and I feel like that works best with both characters, whether it's, you know, two male main characters, two female main characters, and male and female, I do prefer when they are kind of more on equal ground. And both have equal chance of, you know, fighting each other.

Tina Koutras (18:24)
Okay.

Right. Have a good match. A match between them. Yeah. So which of the love interests in your work resonates with you the most and why?

CW Rose (18:29)
Exactly. Yeah.

So since I only have one book, I have to say Kaden. Because he's the only one I have right now.

Tina Koutras (18:40)
I guess we can't really talk about future work when you're not there yet.

CW Rose (18:44)
Yeah, especially because I don't really know where I'm going to go with future work. I don't know if I'm going to end up self-publishing, you know, querying for like an agent or like another publisher or sticking with my same publisher. I'm not really sure at this point, so I'm trying to keep it on the DL, like the details. But in terms of Kaden, he does resonate with me because he is the type of... He's a merman. Obviously he's not real. You know, but his personality is the type of partner I would like to have in real life. Right, you know, someone who's like, you know, respectful.

Tina Koutras (18:56)
Mm-hmm.

Right.

CW Rose (19:10)
and he's open-hearted and he's open-minded. He's very kind. He would do anything for the person he loves and he's handsome, so which never hurts.

Tina Koutras (19:17)
That's right.

CW Rose (19:17)
Right, you know, he has a pretty tail. Exactly. Have to have a pretty tail, okay?

Tina Koutras (19:19)
That's important.

If you could expand on the Ocean Song universe with a spin-off series, which character or storyline would you explore further?

CW Rose (19:33)
I actually had a few in mind because I was thinking of a potential book 3 bouncing ideas around. don't know if I'm going to do it. So that would have to focus on someone else's storyline because Angie and Kate's story is done at the end of a midnight song. So have you read Ocean's Song before I say anything? No, okay. So I won't try to give spoilers. Okay, so I won't give any spoilers. So I would love to explore a point of view from Mia and your sister because there are

Tina Koutras (19:47)
I have not. And possibly some of the readers have not.

Mm-hmm.

CW Rose (20:00)
don't know say this without spoiling anything. So there are events that are set in motion at the of the book, which affect her. And I believe that she deserves to find her happy ending. She needs a happy ending after. Yeah, I'm trying to be super vague. I don't know if that came off. Too many people, like, what is she talking about? Yeah, and then other options would be one of her children, like Rosie or Jack.

Tina Koutras (20:08)
Yes.

Okay, that's a great way to say it without spoilers.

No, it made perfect sense.

CW Rose (20:27)
who is her son who was born at End Devotion Song, maybe when they're grown up, and they find a merman or mermaid of their own to fall in with. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (20:33)
Awesome.

So writing sequels comes with a unique pressure. What's been the most rewarding and the most challenging part of writing Midnight Song?

CW Rose (20:42)
So Midnight Song is a little darker than Oceansong in tone. I mean, the romance is not dark, so I should clarify that. But there are some dark themes in there. One of the hardest parts, and I can say this because I think this is going to make it to the final version of the book, was that there are depictions of emotional abuse. Not between Angie and Kaden. Okay, so it does involve them, but it's not between them. And that was a little tough for me to write because I experienced that.

Tina Koutras (21:02)
Okay.

Right.

CW Rose (21:06)
In a past relationship, I also experienced one that growing up with some family members and it did kind of trigger me a little bit, but I hope it made it more realistic. In a sense, I've gone to therapy over it, so I was okay. It didn't take me to the point where I couldn't write it anymore.

Tina Koutras (21:15)
Yeah.

I think

I think that there's also a certain amount of therapy in that writing, I imagine.

CW Rose (21:25)
Yeah, for sure. You know, because I really enjoyed having the characters, you know, kind of overcome that and see their abuser for who they are. Right. So and I'm like, okay, you know what? There's always hope. So that was tough to write. Another tough part was the fact that I gave my publisher a first draft, essentially, because I had written it while I was editing Ocean Song. And my first drafts usually are pretty messy. So I did not have any beta readers. I didn't have any early readers for it. I just sent it off as it was, and I got back a very, very tough

Tina Koutras (21:26)
Yeah.

Exactly.

Yeah.

CW Rose (21:51)
close edit. I'm like, my god, so much I'm still working on that now.

Tina Koutras (21:56)
Okay, that one's for midnight on? Yeah.

CW Rose (21:57)
Um, that's from Midnight Song. Yeah.

Um, the most rewarding part was getting to wrap up Angie and Kaden's story. They find their true happily ever after. Uh, they do have a happy, happy for now at the end of Ocean's song, but they find their HEA at the end of Midnight Song. And I also really enjoyed writing from Kaden's point of view. That's how this is to It's going to be a dual point of view. And that was very challenging and also very rewarding and very fun.

Tina Koutras (22:14)
Ehh

Nice.

CW Rose (22:21)
Especially kind of trying to see these, how would a merman see them versus a human underwater, right? Because where Angie would go underwater, she'd be like, my gosh, this is so cool. Tell me what this is. I want to know what this is. Because she's a marine biologist, she wants to know everything. Whereas for a caiden, he lives there. So he wouldn't be going around being like, this fish is so cool. He would just say their names in his language and then not feel they need to translate it. Right for the reader.

Tina Koutras (22:25)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Yeah.

It

would be like if I came to visit New York versus you who've been there, right?

CW Rose (22:47)
Yeah, I mean, I was to be happy and excited that you're excited, but I'm just like, yeah, I've seen it all before, but I wouldn't like go out there and be like, oh, Times Square is so bright. Be like, oh, Times Square. It's too many people here. I want to go home. I can't find parking.

Tina Koutras (22:49)
Yeah.

It's so busy.

CW Rose (23:01)
So it was definitely interesting. like, okay, how would it look from his point of view writing, how he's moving, how would he say things, how would he describe things, and how does that differ from a human? That was actually really fun. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (23:08)
Right. Right. That's cool.

Yeah. So your stories feature diverse characters and highlight some underrepresented voices. Have you received any memorable feedback from readers who connected with this representation?

CW Rose (23:23)
I'm trying to think. So I don't read my reviews. So I don't know if there's anything in there about that. I think when I first had Ocean Song Pub, when that published, or when I was looking for ARC readers, know, advanced, you know, guess early readers who read early version, provide reviews for anyone who's not sure what ARC reader means. I've had some of them come to me, especially ones who were Asian, and they would say, and they would DM me and say, thank you so much for, you know, featuring Asian characters. And I felt, I felt seen.

I also had another reader say, oh, I felt like your dedication was just for me. it's just comments like that which kind of keep you going, especially as an with a smaller publisher, maybe you don't get as much exposure as someone with a bigger publisher.

Tina Koutras (23:47)
Yeah.

Right.

Yeah, that's awesome. And I do think it would make a huge difference for underrepresented people. And I think that that's awesome.

CW Rose (24:02)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean, when I see books that are based on Chinese mythology, I am so excited. I mean, I I love books. I love stories with all different mythologies. I'm reading a book right now that's Hindu mythology, and I think it's wonderful, and I love it so much. But the first time I ever saw like Asian Romanticism, I'm like, my God, I'm like, I feel, I feel seen. Right? Like this exists, like we can be the main characters. We're not always relegated to be a side character.

Tina Koutras (24:16)
Mm-hmm.

Eh-heh.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's wicked. I know that I saw on Goodreads very recently a, because we have subscription boxes with Candelore and we were looking for, we were looking for books that we could carry in our subscription boxes and there was a very highly anticipated book and it had Asian main characters and I thought that that was fantastic. I think that's amazing.

CW Rose (24:32)
Mm-hmm.

love that.

Yeah, I mean, and I said, and I love, like I said, I don't want to, again, I don't want to say anything bad about anybody, you know, I love all kinds of books. I love, you know, books of, you know, with people of all different cultures and all different backgrounds, you know, but yeah, you know, I still do feel like a lot of the top selling Romanticist authors are still, you know, they're still white. Right, you know, even though there are some, although there are authors out there who are getting more popular who are BIPOC.

Tina Koutras (25:05)
Mmm.

Yeah.

CW Rose (25:20)
And I don't say this room for all of us. This room for everybody in publishing.

Tina Koutras (25:24)
Yeah. Do you think that fantasy and romance genres are doing enough to welcome and celebrate multiculturalism? I think that's kind of what we're going into, but yeah. Yeah.

CW Rose (25:33)
I guess it's a perfect segue to that question, right? Yeah,

think it is getting better in terms of showing more diverse representation, especially in adult fantasy of romance. I do see a lot of YA, like lot of diverse YA romanticy, which is amazing. And I think kids need to be able to see themselves in books, whatever culture, ethnic group you are from. I do feel like we are the minority. It does feel like,

Tina Koutras (25:41)
Mm-hmm.

I agree.

Yeah.

CW Rose (25:58)
And I've talked to other authors about this and it does feel like it's harder to be seen and it's like fighting harder just to be seen by publishers, by marketing pros, by influencers, by readers. Sometimes it's just like kind like chlorine where it's like, know, I'm here too. Give me a chance.

Tina Koutras (26:05)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Wow. Are there any recent books that you can think of by other authors that are leading the way in this regard?

CW Rose (26:22)
Yeah, so the book I'm reading right now, The Legend of Maneka is by Kritika H. Rao. She is, I believe, a Hindu author and it's about Hindu mythology. So I just came out and that is an adult romanticist. So going by adult romanticist only, they are Gwansan, also go on Hurricane Wars and her, the new recent sequel of Monsoon Rising. Beautiful Southeast Asian, you know, inspired romanticist, enemies to lovers. I got to meet her at a book signing. She also, she also read an Endorse Ocean song, which was a

Tina Koutras (26:29)
Mm-hmm.

CW Rose (26:46)
you know, like, a really high honor for me, because I love her books. Right. Also, I know J.C. Lee, who is a Korean, a Korean American author. She just released Nine-Tailed, which is about Korean folklore. And I know there's one more I want to talk about. Su Lin Tan. Right. I know her books also straddle more like new adult, young adult. But she was the author of Daughter of the Moon Goddess, which is based on ancient China.

Tina Koutras (26:48)
Yeah, that's a nice compliment,

CW Rose (27:08)
And that was really, really cool. And it's a beautiful book.

Tina Koutras (27:10)
Yeah. Well,

it's funny because we watch a lot of those things. I'm just going from my own personal experience. watch a lot of Korean. Koreans have movies down to an art form in some regards. I really get captured by a lot of their storylines and I always read subtitles versus, you know,

CW Rose (27:17)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. And, okay.

Tina Koutras (27:35)
what's alternative subtitles and dubbed.

yeah, and I really love those types of movies, but I've never tackled a book. So I guess I have to put that on my list and I'll start with Ocean Song.

CW Rose (27:48)
thank you so much! i'm really honored i'm really honored

to hear that yeah i'm the same way i i don't watch a lot korean movies because i because unfortunately i am very distracted when watch movies so but do i do listen to a lot of k-pop and their k-pop songs are really good can work out i can dance to this i can just like rock out to this in my car i don't know what i don't know what they're saying except for the occasional word here and there but i'm okay i'm okay with that yeah exactly it's fun to listen to

Tina Koutras (28:01)
Yeah.

you

If it makes you move, it makes you move, right? So

how do you approach writing characters with backgrounds that are different from your own while staying authentic and respectful?

CW Rose (28:21)
yeah, so I know this is a very hot topic and I've seen this floating around social media a lot. So I've always had people of different ethnic groups because again, that's what I'm used to. I live in New York City, I grew up in Singapore. Both places are gigantic melting pots. I think I've probably talked to or interacted with or befriended at some point somebody from, almost all the cultures, right? Speaking in so many different languages.

Tina Koutras (28:41)
Yeah.

CW Rose (28:42)
So I do ask them a lot about their culture. So I try to stay authentic just because I genuinely want to know because I love learning about other people and I love learning about like what makes you you. You know, like what are your traditions? are like tell me the significance of your holidays and your food, especially the food. You know, yes. You know, so what I do is I as although I will write them into my books, you know, like I do not make them my main characters.

Tina Koutras (28:56)
Yeah.

We're big foodies too.

CW Rose (29:07)
And I also don't write from their viewpoint because I feel like it's not my story to tell. You know, so, um, but yeah, I do write them. And they seem like, grew up in a colorblind world. So my character is also in colorblind worlds, even though Angie is a rural Alaska, you know, she has friends who are Filipino, friends who are Vietnamese. You know, there are people who are American, right? You know, there are people who are, you know, African-Americans. So I try to incorporate people of different cultures.

Tina Koutras (29:12)
Okay. Yeah.

Nice. That's very interesting.

CW Rose (29:33)
And just kind of,

yeah, and I kind of write them at her interactions with them based on my personal interactions with people to make it realistic. So I try not to contrive anything. And I really don't want to stereotype ever.

Tina Koutras (29:38)
Right.

Right.

No, for sure. So scuba diving clearly plays a huge role in your life. What was the most stunning underwater moment that you've experienced in real life? And then make it into your book.

CW Rose (29:53)
I am so excited to talk

about this. No, it did not because this came after Oceansong was published. So it was very recent. I had gone diving. I actually got certified in a lake. So I saw fish, but it was fine. And then my first time in the sea was like breathtaking. I could swim next to the fish. I employed this with me over my head. You see the coral underwater. It is so, so gorgeous. And then last month,

Tina Koutras (29:58)
Okay.

It was a like.

CW Rose (30:16)
we're in March now. Yes, so last month I went to Hawaii with my brother and I was scuba diving there and he took us to a pretty quiet area and there were sea turtles. Right, so sea turtles are I think are amazing to see even from land but to be underwater swimming with swimming with them and watching them in their little caverns, looking at them sleeping in the ocean, I just like floored them like this is amazing this is so cool. I'm like what chance do I ever have again to get this close to sea turtles?

Tina Koutras (30:39)
Yeah, it would be.

That's awesome.

CW Rose (30:44)
Right,

we saw a shark, a of really colorful fishes, and you know, they look at you, and so you look at them and you respect them. You swim away, you leave them alone. I mean, going underwater is always magical for me, feel like, that was especially so because I've never seen turtles up close like that before.

Tina Koutras (30:59)
What kind of turtles were there? Were they?

CW Rose (31:01)
I

think they're just green sea turtles. Kawaii green sea turtles. Maybe just like a little nook of like ten of them. And they'll just say face planted there or sleeping on the rocks.

Tina Koutras (31:03)
Okay. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, be beautiful.

CW Rose (31:14)
Yeah, anyway.

Tina Koutras (31:14)
So if you were to write an autobiography, what would the chapter about your love of the ocean and diving be titled?

CW Rose (31:23)
So, a disclaimer, I am really bad at coming with titles. It took me forever to come up with oceansong so I'm like, okay, this is cool. Probably getting certified as a diver when you have asthma. And I say that because I did not get certified for a long time. Because I was always told, you have asthma, you can't scuba dive, it'll make it worse. I'm like, okay, so I just never did it. And I would just kind of relegate myself to snorkeling and just swimming.

Tina Koutras (31:40)
Yeah.

CW Rose (31:47)
Even though wanted to dive, I thought I'd look really cool. So at some point, I work in hospital and we were doing an adaptive scuba diving event for some of our patients. And one of the structures was that you want to get in. I'm like, no, can't. I have asthma. He no, it's okay. You come in. I'm like, okay. You know, he's like, just put this on. And I'm like, you're in a four feet deep pool. Okay. I'm like, if you can't breathe, just stand up. You can swim.

Tina Koutras (32:02)
Hehehehe

Stand up.

CW Rose (32:09)
Yeah, so

I put on the respirator and I went under and I just kind of hung there. I'm like, let me see if my asthma kicks in. I might hail it with me just in case. And it didn't. And it was amazing. And then from there I got certified. And I mean, live in New York City now. There's not a great lot of great places to go diving around here, but whenever I go on vacation, I try to go for a dive, especially if it's near the shore or there's a beach nearby. You know, so and that's my story of how I got.

Tina Koutras (32:29)
Yeah.

CW Rose (32:34)
certified when I was told I couldn't.

Tina Koutras (32:36)
Nice. You

know, I had a friend when I was at work who was a diver and I used to think that it was such a break of the mold because she was older and she would go everywhere to dive, like everywhere. It didn't matter whether it was lake or ocean. So I'm on the East Coast. So we live

CW Rose (32:57)
I love that.

Tina Koutras (33:04)
like right on the water, and she would go anywhere. And she said it would be amazing to see all of the different things that were in the Halifax Harbor. And one specific thing that she saw in the Halifax Harbor was a group of people, there was a shipwreck, not a huge, like just a small ship that had gone down. So a bunch of people took Halloween skeletons.

CW Rose (33:06)
Awesome.

okay.

Tina Koutras (33:28)
and they dressed them up like pirates and they put them in this shipwreck. A bunch of divers did this. So she had heard about it and she wanted to see it for herself. And she showed me all these pictures of this ship that is like, it's just like a personal ship that somebody had sunk, whether it was from a storm or whatever. And it's just loaded in these Halloween skeleton pirates. It's hilarious.

CW Rose (33:34)
I love it.

my god.

I love that. need to Google this when I have to remember their call. Oh my God. That sounds so, can you imagine diving and just seeing a bunch of like, what the heck? What is this? Like why are there pirates

Tina Koutras (34:02)
Especially if you don't know about

it. Yeah, it's hilarious. So, karaoke is such a fun hobby. If there was a sing-off between you and one of your characters, who would win?

CW Rose (34:08)
That is amazing. love it. I'll try not to laugh too loud. But I'm like, that's great. I love it. Yeah.

That's tough. So I, okay, I want to say me, but with the disclaimer that I don't know, right? Because none of my characters can explicitly sing. Even in Ocean Song or any of other works in progress, I actually have one character in my current work in progress that gets made fun of for her terrible singing, you know? But so no one in Ocean Song can sing. If I...

Tina Koutras (34:22)
Hehehehe

CW Rose (34:41)
I think Mia, Angie's sister, would be really good at it. To be honest, Angie would probably not participate. She would just sit on a couch and probably be grouchy. Or one of the merfolk, you know, maybe they have a Siren song that that I even know about. Right, and sometimes they can just surprise me. like, they're singing. You know, characters do that.

Tina Koutras (34:48)
Hehehehe

Yeah.

Well, you would want to go against

the one that doesn't know how to sing that way you would win.

CW Rose (35:02)
Yeah, exactly. drag Angie.

If I had dragged Angie, she would just hate me. But it's okay. I'm like, created you.

Tina Koutras (35:11)
So you mentioned your constant search for new teas. If you could design a tea inspired by Ocean Song, what would it taste like?

CW Rose (35:11)
You

Mm.

for Ocean Song, would want something that's like, I mean, it's not a super, it's not a light book, but I want something like light and oceany, I guess, if that makes sense. So I'm thinking like, yeah, something refreshing. Exactly. That's a better word. So I am thinking like a butterfly pea flower tea for that gorgeous like deep blue color. And then maybe with like some lemongrass or spearmint, right? To give it that like refreshing balance. Brightness. Yes.

Tina Koutras (35:26)
Okay. Yeah. Like refreshing.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Brightness. Yeah, that sounds

awesome. I would drink it.

CW Rose (35:44)
Yeah, so that's what

I would do for oceansong I feel like plus it's herbal, know, there's no caffeine, so you don't get wired.

Tina Koutras (35:49)
Right.

So your Pekingese dog might truly be a magical creature. How does your pet keep you focused when you're trying to write?

CW Rose (35:58)
I don't know if he keeps me focused more as he distracts me a lot. You know, but in the times where he doesn't need something, so he is the one when I come home and I greet him because he demands to be greeted or else he gets very upset. He will chase me and run underfoot and sit there and stare at me like that until I pet him. So he kind of, so whenever I pet him, my brain shuts off from work mode and he goes into like home mode. Right, so feel like he is the key. Like this little...

Tina Koutras (36:01)
Hahaha!

you

Yeah, so he's like your own little bit

of therapy.

CW Rose (36:24)
Yeah, so my little brother, and I'll talk to him. He looks at me, so I don't know what she's saying, but okay, maybe he'll give me food. Right, Yeah, you see him look at you, they're like, Mom, come on. Read my mind. I mean, so he's being grounded because when I do write and I hear him laying there, he has a flat face, so he snores. And when I hear him snoring, when I see him sleeping, you're very comfortably, and I know he feels safe.

Tina Koutras (36:29)
So mine does too. Where's my food?

Right.

CW Rose (36:53)
And I'm like, okay, well, if he feels safe, he's a little watchdog, then I feel safe and I can relax. Um, but that's, but also he's pretty good about making me get up, you know, take breaks in my writing. Cause I will sit there and write for like two, three hours straight without a break. And then next thing I know, I'll like, he'll come up to me, my purple vision. I'll just see a little brown thing coming. He'll breathe in, he'll breathe in my face. He'll pant in my face. So I guess I have to smell his breath. I'm like, okay. Or he'll bark in my ear.

Tina Koutras (36:57)
Nice.

Yeah.

Hahaha

CW Rose (37:18)
or he will sit there, he'll stare at me, so it kind of forces me to get up and take breaks to see what he wants. Whether, I don't know, he wants a snack, if he wants more water, if he wants to play, I don't know. So it's like a little break. Yum. Like they make you get up.

Tina Koutras (37:28)
I could definitely relate to that.

When I'm writing, have my Cane Corso sits behind me on the bed and I'll be writing away and I have a good solid three hours in the morning where she'll leave me alone. But when that three hours is up, I'll hear is, hmm.

CW Rose (37:45)
my god! I can't hear

that! I cannot hear this sound! like, what do you want, baby?

Tina Koutras (37:49)
So you've shared some insights into the challenges of querying as an author. Were there particular strategies or resources that helped you to stand out?

CW Rose (37:54)
Okay.

querying is one of my favorite topics to talk about because I spent six years in a query trenches before I got published. So yeah, and it was a lot of rejections. A lot. I think you have to have a thick skin when publishing, I feel like, or when getting to publishing because you're going to get like... Because when you send out your query letter or when you go on a sub, it's like it's not up to you anymore. At that point, it's out of your control. And these people don't know you, right? You know, they're just looking at your story.

Tina Koutras (38:04)
wow, that's a long time.

Got some thick skin on you.

Yeah.

Yeah.

CW Rose (38:26)
And they're like, okay, you know what, this is gonna, this is gonna do well. This is gonna help me make money. So to look at it from a business perspective, you're get rejections and it's gonna hurt. Um, so what helped me stand out, I want to say is when I got some advice to kind of talk about what made my story different. Yeah, similar. So finding the right comp titles. Right. You know, so I used, oh gosh, what did I use for Ocean's Song? I think I used Undertaking of Heart and Mercy.

Tina Koutras (38:43)
Yep.

CW Rose (38:51)
by Megan Bannon. I also use Bitter Medicine by Mia Tsai and I think I use Call to the Deep by Desiree M. Nicolai. Nicoli. I'm sorry if I pronounced her name wrong. So I used those three comp titles and then I also created a really strong pitch and I think that helped. So my pitch for Oceansong is An Asian Romeo and Juliet Meets the Little Mermaid If It Was Set in the Greeniness of the Real World. Right, so I think that helped a lot. So it kind of talked about like what made

Tina Koutras (39:12)
Okay. Yeah.

CW Rose (39:15)
ocean's not different from those, but also it kind of gives like two familiar stories that people can be like, yeah, I know Romeo and Juliet, I know the Little Mermaid, and an Asian version of it, it's in the real world, and I think it gives people an idea immediately. Where for my first book that I queried, I did not have that, I don't even think I knew what it was about, I just wrote it and I queried it, I don't even know what the book's about, I don't know what the main character wants, I don't really know what the major conflict is. So writing a strong query letter, also.

Tina Koutras (39:27)
Yeah.

CW Rose (39:40)
No, your hook. Yep. Yes.

Tina Koutras (39:40)
Awesome. Know your hook.

So how did you turn your rejection into motivation while you were going through this process?

CW Rose (39:49)
I like to say wish your stubbornness because I am a very stubborn person. I did have to shelve my first manuscript after about 60 rejections because my heart wasn't in it. With Ocean's Song, it did a little bit better in the query trenches. I think I sent 250 queries. Or about 200. I'm out of that ballpark. I don't want to anymore.

Tina Koutras (40:06)
Hey, wow.

CW Rose (40:10)
Um, I did get a pretty decent request rate, like a 20, like a 10 % request rate, which I think by today's standards, it's pretty good. You know, so I would get full and partial requests. And whenever I got one of those, it would kind of renew my hope to keep querying. Right. So there was never really a time where it was just rejection after rejection after rejection for like months and months on end, it'd be like a lot of rejection and then a full request. And then a single full request would keep me going. Right. Also, also have the author friends that kind of cheer you on, um, have you support, have you a good support system, you know, and,

Tina Koutras (40:30)
Wow.

Yeah.

CW Rose (40:37)
And I remember something that my mom told me a while ago when I was querying Ocean's song. I was getting like really about to give up at that point. I'm like, I had gotten so many rejections and even my full request and my partial request became rejections where I got ghosted and I was getting really discouraged. And I was just venting to her in the car. I'm just like, I'm never going to get published. I just keep getting rejected over and over. And you know, for a while she didn't say anything. I'm just like, is she even listening to me? And then all she said was your time will come.

And that helped so much, right? You know, that we have to try to let, yeah, that's all she had to say. And I think at that point, I felt like there was a big weight off my shoulders. I kind of felt a more free. like, okay, you know what? I should just keep querying and let the chips fall where they may, right? Instead of, instead of being like super, because unfortunately these rejections are not personal, right? They say nothing about you as a person. It's just, it's just maybe that your book was not right for that person at that time.

Tina Koutras (41:07)
Funny something so simple, eh?

Right. So in this, so we're in a different time where there is indie authors and there's formats that are so much easier to access than they used to be. What made you decide to go the route of being published versus doing the indie author thing?

CW Rose (41:28)
Right.

Mm-hmm. Do you love? Yes.

So I have a lot of respect for indie authors. I think they are amazing and I've seen some really amazing works, you know, that are on par with or better than like traditionally published works. I knew I wanted a publisher because I didn't feel like I knew enough about publishing to go at it on my own. Like, I, and because I'm between working a full-time job and, you know, trying to keep up with like hobbies outside of writing and my family and friends. I didn't really feel like I had

like that kind of time, I guess, either. So not enough knowledge, not enough time. And I did want somebody to hold my hand through the process and at least do some of the marketing, right? And I know whether you're or whether you're indie, you are responsible for the bulk of your marketing. Most publishers will a little bit, at least. And I knew I wanted that help. wanted someone to do my formatting for me, do a cover design.

Tina Koutras (42:20)
Okay.

Mm-hmm.

Right. Yeah.

CW Rose (42:35)
Help me with the edits. Because I feel like I also don't know enough about how to hire a good editor. What do I look for? have no clue. Where I started going with a publisher would be more helpful in my case.

Tina Koutras (42:41)
Yeah. Okay.

lot of work to get there, but it's awesome that you did. So you, you literally had written another book, like you said, you didn't really feel like it had its own wings, we'll say. And you started from scratch because that one wasn't doing it for you. So you really wanted to be a writer. That's what that says to me.

CW Rose (42:47)
Yep.

Yeah, can't. Yeah, I mean, I've

been writing since I was 12, you know, and I can't, I I won't say my age now, but I'm much older. I'm much older now. And I feel like writing was always very, very therapeutic and it's something I can never not do. And I know there's a correlation, like there were times in my life where things were a little more difficult and those would be the times I would not be writing. Right, know, so writing was always my escape. It was like, it was therapy for me before I...

Tina Koutras (43:06)
Yeah.

Yeah

Yeah.

CW Rose (43:27)
understood and accepted that know that therapy was a thing. Seeking outside help was a thing. you know writing books, writing characters who go through similar situations was helpful for me in processing a lot of stuff that I had you know maybe heard or experienced in my own life. And I have stories in my head that just need that just need to come out.

Tina Koutras (43:40)
Right.

They want it out, yeah.

CW Rose (43:45)
They're like, let me out. I'm like, OK, I'll try.

Tina Koutras (43:48)
So balancing a physical therapy career and with writing must have been pretty intense, not to mention the whole process of being published. Can you share what your typical day looks like for you now and how you shift gears between the two roles aside from your, your Pekingese helping you?

CW Rose (44:04)
except

for my dog, my little fur ball. So, okay, so a typical day, looks like I get up around 6 a.m., 6.30 a.m., I'm on our commute to work. It could be more give or take, could be more or less mini on traffic in New York City, so you never know. And my work days are about eight and half hours long. I usually go to a workout after work. So I have to come home, I have to meal prep, I have to entertain sunshine.

Tina Koutras (44:17)
Mm-hmm.

CW Rose (44:25)
I have to see if my mom or my grandma need any help. And then I sit down. So I sit down, usually about seven, eight o'clock at night. And I have about an hour or two before I need a shower or go to sleep. I get ready for the next day.

Tina Koutras (44:37)
wow, where do you write?

CW Rose (44:38)
Yeah, so my coworkers ask me, how do you have time to do this? I'm like, so what I do is I do a lot of my quote, quote writing at work, not officially. So I carry my phone's notepad with me all the time. So sometimes I might be between patients. I might have a cancellation. It might be a little bit of quieter day. And sometimes I'll just sit there and, you know, they start to percolate. And when they do, I write them down. So my goal is to have something written down. So when I get home,

I don't have to use the brain power to think about things. Right, which is what I'm doing now for edits because it's a pretty major edit round I'm doing right now. just sometimes in my work, I'm just like, I could fix this thing. I could fix that scene. And I write down what I want to say. And then when I come home at night, I'm like, I don't have to think about it. I can just transcribe it from my notepad to the computer.

Tina Koutras (45:06)
Right. That makes sense.

CW Rose (45:23)
And yay, I don't have to think. Which is nice, after whole day of thinking. Yes.

Tina Koutras (45:27)
After a long day, yes.

So imposter syndrome and creative burnout are real struggles for many writers. What self-care practices help you stay creative and confident in your craft?

CW Rose (45:31)
Okay.

I mean, like everybody else, do get imposter syndrome. It still hits every now and then. I still get moments where I'm like, my writing sucks. Why would anyone want to read this? Especially if I accidentally come across a bad review or if somebody, luckily, I think only like one person has done this, like tagged me in a low review. Like, please don't, please don't do it. It was a three star, but just fine. You know, but the review was like half positive, half negative. like, please don't.

Tina Koutras (45:55)
That's not nice

CW Rose (46:02)
tag me, like this. that kind of take my mental health for a little bit. Even though I know that not every book is for everybody, and I accept that. But to have it, I guess being said about your book is a little tough to swallow. So I do a lot of yoga, I do a lot of meditation. I did a lot of meditation before I came on today, right, you and that helps me to kind of rewire my brain and slow myself down. And also reading good reviews. You know, sometimes if I

Tina Koutras (46:13)
Yeah. Yeah.

CW Rose (46:27)
if I do end of work and reads, or if I have my readers coming to message me, if I, or readers making a post on my book. It's always nice to see, you know, and just like reading all like old beta reader comments and just remind myself that yeah, you know, there are people out there who will like my book and that's the person that those people I want to reach. Right? I my book's not for everybody and I am fully aware of that. Um, also doing things outside of writing, you know, like I do read a lot. also a very avid reader, uh, across genres, going for walks.

Tina Koutras (46:34)
Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

CW Rose (46:53)
you know, spending time with my friends and family and just kind of getting away from the story for a while. It also helps me to be more excited about it again. Versus me sitting there beating my head against something like, why is it worse coming out? You know?

Tina Koutras (46:58)
Yeah.

Yeah, that's a good way to word it. Yeah.

Sometimes it's better if you have a bad day just to walk away.

CW Rose (47:09)
Yeah, exactly.

Sometimes you have to do that because otherwise you just sit there and you spiral and you wallow. It could just be me. You know, but I do that. I'll just spiral and I'll start doomscrolling. I'm like, you know what? Put everything down. Go pet sunshine or something or go outside. I'll tell myself. Or go cook something. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (47:22)
Yeah.

So have

you learned any valuable lessons from moments when you doubted yourself?

Like you mentioned what your mother had said to you to help you through it. Are there any other? Yeah.

CW Rose (47:29)
So everyone was, yeah.

Yeah, that was very helpful.

Also, yeah, I think realizing that it's okay to have self doubts and you don't have to bury it. Right. And I think most authors have periods of self doubt. It's completely normal. Right. So I've learned that it's helpful to recognize that it's there, you know, and if you really need someone to boost you, you know, talk to your writing friends, talk to your talk to your, you know, your best author friend.

Tina Koutras (47:50)
Yeah.

CW Rose (47:58)
you know, again, read old beta reader comments, you know, and find what works for you. It helps, you know, it helps me to make you feel better. Like I know for me, it helps me to just recognize the emotion, right? Or like again, or again, or also so spiraling, but it helps, it does help to recognize the emotion. Okay, I'm feeling self doubt. I'm going to sit in there for a little bit and then I'm going to push it away. And I think, you know, acknowledging the emotion helps a lot.

Tina Koutras (48:04)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, for sure. I like that, yeah. If you could take one of your characters from Ocean Song on a scuba diving adventure, or if one of your characters would take you on a scuba adventure, who would you choose and why?

CW Rose (48:32)
So I'm gonna step away from the usual suspects, which would be and Kayden. I would actually love to go scuba diving with one of Angie's friends, one of her father figures in a book, named Stappman. And he is a very, very avid scuba diver. Him and his husband go diving all over the world, but they like cold water, right? They like cold places. So I feel like if I were to go scuba diving, it would be with him because he's a lot of fun. You know, he's very experienced and he probably wouldn't want to make me feel okay about plunging to, know,

like 40 degree water because i don't think i would go in otherwise i'm like no no yeah yeah i think i'd do it like a dry suit i don't think a wetsuit would do it because it is freezing like i mean i'm terrified to dip my toe in cold water i can't imagine submerge my whole body in it yet i write about it so i don't know

Tina Koutras (48:58)
Yeah. You need that wetsuit,

Yeah.

What's the most bizarre or unexpected inspiration that you've had for your story or characters?

CW Rose (49:22)
Uh, so it's not from Ocean's Song, it's actually my first book that I queried. And I actually got inspiration from video game Elf, because I had a crush on him when I was 16. It was, I'll say who it is, I don't know, if you ever played World of Warcraft, there was a character named Illidan Stormrage, he was a dark elf, who later becomes a demon. And I'm like, oh, he's so, my 16 year old son had a hugest crush on him. So I wrote my first

My first book with him is Dilla Fintrest. It looked exactly like him. And I look back now, I'm like, I really need to change this.

Tina Koutras (49:53)
Hehehehehe

CW Rose (49:55)
So that's

probably my most bizarre was that he wasn't even a main character, he was like a side character. So, yeah. So, probably that.

Tina Koutras (50:00)
That's okay.

So if you're this is a fun little question. If your books were turned into a theme park, what would your star attraction ride be?

CW Rose (50:10)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

I think, okay, so I don't know what they're called, but you know those rides where you go into a tube, like a clear tube, and you just sit in a little donut, and you go down rushing water? I think that'd be really fun, but going through the Murr Palace. So you get to meet all the Murr folk on the way, you get to see the inside of palace, and you get to go on a little flume ride as you go down the hallway. I think that'd be really fun.

Tina Koutras (50:21)
Mm-hmm.

Yes?

That's awesome!

You'd want it to be slow enough that you could actually see it all though, so nothing like superpowered.

CW Rose (50:38)
That's true. It'd be too

fast. So maybe like slow rushing water, not like...

Tina Koutras (50:42)
So kind of like an underwater lazy river that goes through this. Yeah, that's fun. I think that would be fun. Yeah. Nice.

CW Rose (50:45)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, did Lazy River, we perfect. That'll be fun, underwater Lazy River. So you kind of just like, yeah, like drift with the currents and you just kind of go through the Murr Palace, taking the sights.

I think that'll be fun.

Tina Koutras (50:55)
did writing Midnight's Song force you to step out of your comfort zone in any way?

CW Rose (50:59)
Yes, I had to write about politics. So I had to write about my politics, which I don't feel like I was very good at. But considering it is, I mean, just as big as possible, you know, it is a battle for the throne at that point in Midnight Song. And there's a lot of like, you know, politics between the queendoms, know, between like kings and queens and the princes and their subjects and a lot of navigating that.

Tina Koutras (51:01)
Huh?

CW Rose (51:23)
That was very tough. My publisher was very... Actually my editor was very good about getting me to... Like, oh, why don't you try doing this? You know, actually if... If the prince was gonna do this, you know, they should go through the council. They can't just do it by themselves. things like that. They would help me with. I did find that a little tough initially to write on my own. Even though the story needed it. So I think that was probably the toughest part for me. Was making that... Was making that like realistic or like... I guess easy to suspend disbelief.

Tina Koutras (51:36)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Okay.

CW Rose (51:51)
and not too far out there and too unbelievable.

Tina Koutras (51:51)
Mm-hmm.

Right. So do you feel like you're taking any creative risks with any upcoming projects?

CW Rose (51:58)
I don't know that I am. mean, yeah, so definitely with... Okay, so A Midnight Song, it is a dual point of view. Until now, I've only written from the female point of view. So writing from a male point of view was interesting. I know that's a very common thing. I do like to write against Dory said in two worlds. And my next book is going to be... not sure what my next book because I have two other projects I'm working on right now.

Tina Koutras (52:15)
Mm-hmm.

projects on the go.

CW Rose (52:22)
Yeah, what's a contemporary romance? One is a fantasy romance. So I think they're both kind of, for me, creative rest, because I'm not used to romance. You know, so I mean, I still want to write one because for me, I'm like, I should use my fantastical, but I don't want to. This is completely set in real world. So I keep that in mind. And then my other book is a portal fantasy. Right. So it's again, trying to balance the real world with the mythical world. And how do they come together? How do they intertwine?

Tina Koutras (52:30)
Right.

Yeah.

Right.

CW Rose (52:46)
So it's a little fun for me to explore. And I'm also doing like a lot of Chinese mythology in my next romenkasi. and again, trying to, yeah, and again, trying to see how, trying to figure out how that would kind of collide with the real world. It's definitely challenging.

Tina Koutras (52:48)
Yeah, I think it would be.

Ooh, exciting.

Yeah, I imagine. I

look forward to that. I think that's a very interesting context.

CW Rose (53:04)
Thank you. Yeah, people told me they

want to read that. So I think I'm going to finish that, I'll query that next. I'm about a third of the way done with that.

Tina Koutras (53:08)
Yeah.

Sorry, what was that?

CW Rose (53:11)
I'm about a third of the way done with it right now. Hopefully by the end of the year. We'll see. I'm a slow writer.

Tina Koutras (53:14)
Okay, cool.

Well, it sounds like you have very limited time to write, so maybe you're actually faster than you think.

CW Rose (53:23)
Yeah, you know, I was just talking about writing about this because I had to redo a lot of Midnight Song because my editor gave me an alternate timeline for it so I had to switch a lot of scenes around, like a lot of scenes around. So I essentially had to just take the whole book, sit it there, and then just redo the whole thing from scratch, right, with the scenes next to me. And I'm like, okay, well, if I really put myself through it, can do it in month. But that's if I don't do anything else with my time. I come home, I write. You know, on my weekends, I go somewhere, spend half the day to write. At that point, I can do it in a month.

but I can't do anything else outside of work, but that's okay.

Tina Koutras (53:51)
Yeah.

Wow. So final question for aspiring authors juggling multiple passions like you do. What's one myth about writing or publishing that you'd love to debunk?

CW Rose (54:03)
that you don't have to write every day to be considered a writer. There's nothing wrong if you don't write every day. There's nothing wrong if you don't write for months. There's nothing wrong if you don't write for years. You're still a writer, right? So never like feel that pressure to say, I need to be on social media every day. I need to post every day. I need to write every day. You don't need to. You're a writer. And that's okay. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (54:21)
I think that's great advice. I

struggle with social. I really struggle with social.

CW Rose (54:26)
Look, Tina, I

am still struggling with socials right now. I don't know what to do. I'm terrible at creating graphics. I do use other people's templates and I credit them and I pay them for it. Because otherwise, I'm terrible. I cannot make a template in my life. I make it real. It takes me like two hours to make it real. And I see about 10 people and I'm like, I'm that was worth it for the two hours of my time. My fonts are off. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (54:42)
Hahaha!

There's

some people that create these beautiful images and I love, I have a few people on Instagram, a few of them that I absolutely love seeing their timelines because they're gorgeous. And every time I see them, I'm man, how do you do that?

CW Rose (54:53)
yeah.

I don't know,

you know, like I feel like maybe... Yeah, I don't know, because I also do not have a visual eye. I mean, that's my other problem. So I don't know like what to do or like what fonts to put up. Like this looks nice. I'll just do this. Yeah, so I ended up actually subscribing to another author's Patreon who makes beautiful graphics and I just kind of use her templates, you know, so because I'm like, I can't do it on my own. I can't draw. I have no...

Tina Koutras (55:18)
Yeah.

Very nice.

Mm-hmm.

CW Rose (55:29)
I have for visual things, I have no eye for art, that's why I cannot draw my own characters, I will draw stick figures and be like, yeah, this is fine. Which is why I pay other people to that for me, because they are way more talented than I am. And I don't even see my characters when I write them, I don't know what they look like. Yeah, I don't see my characters in my head. I'm like, I guess they look like this, I don't know, Angie has long hair and she's about 5'5 and she's Asian.

Tina Koutras (55:44)
really?

wow!

CW Rose (55:52)
That's all I got. I don't know what her facial features are. don't know if she's like, you know, petite. don't know if she's like, you know, full of figure. I don't know. It's odd. No.

Tina Koutras (56:00)
Yeah, it's not something you focus on.

Yeah. So this is my favorite part. This is where we ask our authors to show off your book, let people see what it looks like so they know what to look for when they go to the bookstore or when they're looking for it online. So do you want to show us what Ocean Song looks like?

CW Rose (56:19)
I would love to. So I thought my cover designer did an amazing job. Not mine, my publishers. You know, they hired them. This is the bug. is Angie. That's Kaden. And I love all the little details they put in. I don't know you look closely, you can see like a little palace in the background, in the back. There are some spears, you know, because in this war, there are humans using spear guns, you know, to fight the merfolk under the water.

Tina Koutras (56:30)
Yeah.

Yeah.

CW Rose (56:43)
And I like what they did with the land and the sea portion. I love they did a really good job. This is the front, this is the back.

Tina Koutras (56:47)
Do you know what spoke

to me about that front cover when I first saw it was his posture. Because your description of his personality, his posture is in that description. Like it's very unimposing, very gentle. And I feel like that image is a very perfect image for what you describe as his personality.

CW Rose (56:53)
Mm-hmm.

okay, tell me more.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and thank you. I'll be sure to tell my, you know, my publisher that I'm sure they're happy to hear. So yeah, I actually didn't notice that. Cause in my mind, initially, when gave them my, like, when they asked me for my ideas, I was imagining him more like straight and like reaching for Angie like that. But I, but then with this pose, I'm like, oh, that's interesting. But now that I look at it and now that you say that, I'm like, yeah, that's perfect. Yeah. You know, they really knew what they were doing. Yep. Again. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (57:17)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Funny, right? So, where do people

find you?

CW Rose (57:41)
So I am at cwroseauthor, all one word on Instagram, threads, and TikTok. I am just cwrose on Facebook and at cwrose813 on Twitter. X. I still call it Twitter. I'm not really active on there anymore. I used to be, but not recently.

Tina Koutras (57:58)
and on Goodreads. You're on Goodreads as well.

CW Rose (57:59)
And I'm also on,

yes, I'm on Good Reads and Stardraft. CW Rose Oceansong is on there, Mindaesong is on there. If you want to add it to your TBR and yeah, you'll find everything on there.

Tina Koutras (58:02)
Awesome.

That's awesome. Thank you so much for joining us tonight. was such a wonderful opportunity to sit down and you have this very calming energy. Like I feel really good. Yeah, you do.

CW Rose (58:18)
Do I really? Yeah, I was so hyper today at work. One of my

was like, did you have caffeine? I'm like, yeah, actually I did. Now I can work it harder. He's like, crap. Yeah, that's right, crap. We're going to walk now.

Tina Koutras (58:36)
Well, then I got the tail end of your day, but your energy is like fairy Zen.

CW Rose (58:37)
Thank you for saying that.

Yeah, right

now very calm. It's also because I pet Sunshine earlier. He used to give me those big beady eyes. I think he wanted food. I'm pretty sure that's what he wanted. He wanted food. He's waiting for a treat. But yes, he keeps me calm too. You know, petting dogs is very calming. And having some nice herbal tea also helps.

Tina Koutras (58:48)
you

Yeah, it is.

So thank you again for sitting down with us and I really look forward to having a look at your book and I hope that you get lots of beautiful reviews for it.

CW Rose (59:10)
Thank you so much, Tina. It was a pleasure being here. Thank you for having me. I had a lot of fun. Yay. That's true.

Tina Koutras (59:15)
Awesome. I'm really happy to hear that. Thank you.