Ink and Flame Episode #12
Angelina Kelly: Author of The Source of Storms

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Transcription

Tina Koutras (00:00)
Welcome to Ink and Flame, the bookish podcast where we chat with authors about all things books. I'm your host, Tina Koutras and we're sitting down with Angelina Kelly to talk about her book, The Source of Storms. Hi, Angelina, how are you?

Angie (00:14)
Hi, I'm doing well, how are you?

Tina Koutras (00:16)
Good. Where are you coming to us from tonight?

Angie (00:20)
Ooh, I'm in Kelowna, British Columbia. Yeah. Good. It's actually so warm today. It's really nice. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (00:23)
Nice! How's the weather there?

I'm so jealous. We just had

our last, I think our last snowstorm yesterday and most of it's gone already. So I'm really grateful that's the end of it. Yeah. Spring is in the air. We can feel it. So to start, you grew up in a remote Alaskan community surrounded by land and sea. What was it like growing up in such a wild kind of rugged environment?

Angie (00:33)
Nice.

It's coming, yeah.

Mm-hmm.

yeah, it was pretty magical, pretty different. think I didn't, I mean, I didn't realize how different it was going to be until I left. and then I really realized how much the rest of the world is not like that. But it was really great. I, I really got to grow up very immersed in nature, in a place that can be very difficult to

to live, survive. It's a harsh climate. We get a lot of big storms, a lot of snowfall, and it's really remote. So there's no road that connects it to anywhere else. You have to either fly or take a ferry. And I think that creates a really specific type of community. It's, I mean, it's small and it's very tight knit, because it kind of has to be, which can be mostly positive, but also can be negative. It can be tough, you know, growing up that way.

Tina Koutras (01:34)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Angie (01:46)
But yeah, it was really wonderful. It was really, really beautiful. And I think I grew up with that value for nature and for wilderness just kind of naturally ingrained in me, which I'm very grateful for.

Tina Koutras (02:00)
So how old were you when you left there?

Angie (02:04)
I didn't move away until I was 18 and I went to, yeah, I went and did my, I mean, I had traveled, of course, but yeah, I moved away to do my bachelor's degree in Montana. So yeah, not till then. ⁓

Tina Koutras (02:07)
wow.

Wow, that's

cool. So eight, that would be a little bit of a culture shock to get into a completely different world, yeah.

Angie (02:21)
Yes.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, which is

kind of it's funny to think of it as like a culture shock within your own country, but it's definitely was. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (02:32)
Mm-hmm.

I would imagine. So did the landscapes and the closeness of nature play a role in shaping your love for storytelling?

Angie (02:42)
Yeah, definitely. I think they really inspired the way that I write and the things that I like to write about. And there's just kind of an inherent magic to it, I suppose, to live somewhere like that, that is that beautiful and that naturally awe-inspiring. And I think places like that also really kind of generate their own... I mean, everywhere in the world generates its own folklore and mythology, right?

Tina Koutras (02:59)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Angie (03:09)
I think

that specifically is, it becomes really shaped by the climate and all of the things that the people there depend on, you know? And it's, up there, it's really, you are very tied to the land. Like a lot of people live a pretty subsistence lifestyle. They depend on the land for food and for their jobs. Where I came from was the commercial fishing village, still is. So everyone up there, either commercial fishes or their job is related to it in some way.

Tina Koutras (03:20)
Yeah.

Angie (03:35)
So that really becomes part of the culture, I think. And that influences your stories that you tell, for sure. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (03:38)
Yeah, I would imagine.

Yeah.

So what kind of stories captured your imagination as a child?

Angie (03:48)
I've always really loved mythology, mythology of all kinds. In high school, I read a lot of Greek mythology. I think that was like not necessarily by choice because that was just, you learn the classics and literature and stuff, but I loved it. And that definitely led me to a love of other other mythology, especially from countries where like my family has history.

and things like that. So yeah, I always loved folklore and mythology. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (04:18)
adventures in your younger years that you feel could have come straight out of a fantasy novel?

Angie (04:24)
man, yeah, I think there were quite a few. I spent a lot of time outdoors as a kid. A lot of time fishing, a lot of time hunting with my dad. Just trying to keep up with him, hiking around in the woods. was a lot as a kid, but...

Tina Koutras (04:29)
Ha ha.

Angie (04:45)
Actually, one of my earliest memories is of being on the boat with him in the ocean, not too far from our house, just out in the bay. I don't know what, we must have been fishing or something. I was really young. I think I was only six. And the sun was setting in the spring, so it must have been late. And this one lone male orca surfaced.

and just was kind of swimming along doing his thing. There were a couple pods that lived there that we would see all the time, but he was off on his own for some reason. And he was just cruising along the surface and we just followed him and the water was perfectly calm. was just glassy calm, I remember that. And then he just was swimming along, he'd surface and then he'd stay right near the surface and just kept going. And we just kind of puttered along behind him watching for I don't know how long, but.

Yeah, I just remember that being so magical and so unreal. Just be like, why is this allowed to happen? Why are we allowed to be in the presence of this creature that could totally just dive and disappear and leave us behind? Yeah, so I think that was one of the most magical ones. And we used to see a lot of marine wildlife like that. There was this other.

Other thing we used to do that everyone up there does, but there are porpoises that live up there as well. Dolls porpoise they're called. And they live in big pods all around the Prince William Sound. And they like to play in the boat wake of boats. They'll race along beside you if you go the right speed and push enough water. So we would go, we would go find them and then we'd get the boat going fast enough that it would push enough water. And then my sisters and I would lay over the bow of the boat so that we were looking right down in the water where they were right below us. And they would

swim along and surface and spray you and splash everything. And it was just really magical. It's a very, very special place to grow up.

Tina Koutras (06:32)
It would be that

sounds incredible. Wow. It's funny. You know, you see these types of things in movies all the time. And when I first started talking with you, I was curious about how often you've seen the Northern Lights being in Nova Scotia. I've only ever seen them literally once. ⁓ And yeah, and it's it's funny to see these things in movies and

Angie (06:35)
Yeah.

Really?

Tina Koutras (07:00)
to hear you speak of them because you've seen all of these things in person and it's just wild to fathom it. It's really cool.

Angie (07:04)
Yeah.

Yeah,

yeah, I feel very lucky to have been able to grow up there. It's a really special place.

Tina Koutras (07:14)
definitely got to kind of create a certain calm, I think, to see these things for you. I mean, there could also be a certain amount of panic if you're meeting the wrong creature of nature, but do you have any stories like that? Yeah.

Angie (07:26)
yeah, that happened a lot too. About bears? Yeah. Yeah. yeah,

I never personally had any problems, but I used to work for the Department of Fish and Game and we would do a lot of research on spawning salmon. So we'd fly in bush planes out to these places where the salmon were spawning and take samples from them. yeah, bears all the time. And it was usually fine, but there were times that...

It was a little too close to be comfortable for sure. The nice thing is, yeah, yeah. The nice thing is they were usually just focused on that. And as long as they knew you were around and you didn't surprise them, was fine. yeah. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (07:56)
Yeah, that's where their food is. ⁓

Crazy, wild.

I think I would love to have lived a day beside you, I think. Yeah.

Angie (08:16)
It is an amazing place, really. I do think everyone

should experience that if they can.

Tina Koutras (08:21)
That's wild. Okay. So you studied biology and worked as a biologist for a while. Can you connect the dots for us of how you, how did you go from science to crafting fantasy?

Angie (08:32)
Yeah,

It's kind of a convoluted story. I don't really know, to be honest with you. I've always really loved writing. I started out just kind of writing about nature, writing little journal entries and stories about nature. And after I did my master's degree, I got a job in consulting and I ended up working up in Northern Alberta.

for a few months. And for people who don't know, I was in Fort Mac, is Fort McMurray, which is where there's a whole lot of bitumen mining, where it's oil sands. So they dig these huge, massive open pit mines up there, and they pull out all of this sand that basically has oil in it, and they clean it up and send it out.

So one of my jobs up there was to fly by helicopter out to all of these wetlands that were going to be drained and then dug up and turned into open pit mines, which is pretty tragic. Like you're standing in places that some human beings, I mean, some of these places people have never even been. They're just complete, pristine wilderness, just a very special wetland ecosystem, all kinds of birds out there. It's really beautiful.

And I would have all of these moments of being like, wow, this is so beautiful. Look at me. Like the helicopter would drop me off. I'd be totally alone. Just like, man, this is so peaceful and so serene. And then in the next instant be like, it's going to be gone. This is going to be a 300 meter deep open pit mine in like a year. So that was tragic. And I didn't stay at that job that long. And then I got a different job in consulting.

Tina Koutras (10:02)
Yikes.

Angie (10:10)
in Kelowna, which was, we didn't do anything with oil, which was really nice. I liked it a lot more, had a lot more fun, but it still just didn't feel like exactly what I had wanted to do. Like I always had this love for storytelling and this love for nature. And I just felt so much more compelled to do something creative with my life and

as that job got more stressful, And I was working just like any nine to five. It becomes hard. It can become a drudgery, kind of sitting in an office all the time. I started writing this book. And I wasn't even sure when I started writing that I was going to try to publish it. I like, I just want to see if I can do it. I just want to see what it turns into. And then I just became completely obsessed. I couldn't.

Tina Koutras (10:42)
Yeah.

Angie (10:57)
couldn't stop writing it. couldn't think about anything else. I couldn't focus on my work anymore. Every time I was out in the fields, I was just thinking about my book and different scenes and scribbling notes in my little notebook or on my phone. Yeah. And then it kind of got to the point where I, I don't know, I couldn't work anymore. I still did, obviously. And I still tried to do a good job, but it's just like, man, this is not, this is just really not cutting it.

for me. Yes, yeah, I was so possessed by this other thing that I was doing that I was like, man, I just don't care. I just can't keep it up.

Tina Koutras (11:25)
mentally unemployable. Yeah.

It's what happens when you're

completely at odds with what you really want to be doing, right?

Angie (11:37)
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (11:41)
So,

and the magic called you. Yeah. Very cool. So, was there a specific moment where you said, okay, enough's enough and I'm gonna do this?

Angie (11:44)
Yes, definitely,

Yeah,

yeah, yeah, there was, there were a lot of moments I thought about quitting for months, months and months before I did. And I was like, this is insane. Like nobody leaves a salaried professional job for this pipe dream of writing, you know? But my fiance was so supportive and he was like, you know, people, people do this. Like you are really good and you, there's no reason you can't.

have this career that other people have. Like it can work. So it was on my mind. then last June, May or June, last spring, I was at the office and I always brought my dog with me because there were a bunch of dogs that were in the office. It was really nice. He came to work with me every day, but around lunchtime, I would always take him outside for a break. And I was standing on the grass.

just kind of looking down and there was all these, there were all these clover on the ground. And for some reason just popped into my mind, I've never found a four leaf clover before in my life. And I was like, okay, if I find one right now, I'll do it. And I looked down and there was one just right there, right by my foot. Just like, God damn it. Okay. I know, yeah.

Tina Koutras (13:03)
Wow.

That's what happens when you make promises to yourself. That's amazing.

Angie (13:13)
Yeah, it was wild. was one of those total like universe is telling you this moments that was just so undeniable. And yeah, so it was after that, it was like, well, I have to. The universe has told me. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (13:18)
Yeah.

Can't ignore the universe, yeah. That's wild, that's amazing.

So do you see the natural world as a character of its own in your storytelling?

Angie (13:36)
Yeah, I think so.

I think so. Maybe not as much a character, it's, well, yeah, it very much shapes all of the characters in this book, in the source of storms specifically, and all of their personalities. There's a lot to, what I wanted to do was create a setting that reflected where I grew up, just a very harsh climate, this Northern world where,

you really have to be part of a community in order to survive, because it's just harder. You need to depend on other people. And then to have the perspective of Halia, the main character, as an outsider to this, to know that she needs to be part of a community, that she needs to be loved and cared for and have important relationships with people, but not really be able to access that in the same way that everyone around her does. And then...

Tina Koutras (14:05)
Mm-hmm.

Angie (14:30)
what that does to a person, really.

Tina Koutras (14:33)
Okay.

Angie (14:34)
So that was kind

of her beginning.

Tina Koutras (14:37)
We'll probably dive into that a little bit deeper soon. How do your experiences in biology influence the way that you write about nature and the source of storms?

Angie (14:40)
Yeah.

I think it gives me the ability to be very detailed about really specific things. Things that-

Tina Koutras (14:56)
Well, the rest of us have

to imagine things. You've seen them.

Angie (14:59)
Yes, yeah, yeah, which is so nice. There's a scene, a very pivotal scene in The Source of Storms under the Northern Lights, like you mentioned, and that I think I didn't even know exactly what needed to happen. I was just like, there has to be something. Like, it's way too magical and too quintessential for these places to not have Northern Lights in there. So things like that, think it helps me.

Well, I hope at least I hope it really helps me set a scene in a very inspiring, magical way with just using like more real life, natural things. ⁓ Like, I really like using birds. There's a lot of birds in here, too. I love using birds as symbols and metaphors. Plants. There's a lot of specific plants in this book as well, which are they're all real.

Tina Koutras (15:36)
Mm-hmm.

Angie (15:49)
They're all real plants that really do the things that I use in the book. So things like that, I think it's nice. I don't know if it's necessarily a good thing that everyone will love, but I really hope that it makes the world more immersive and feel more tangible and more well-rounded.

Tina Koutras (16:07)
Very cool. What inspired the core ideas for this novel?

Angie (16:12)
I touched on that, guess, just a little bit. I'm going to go with the climate. Yeah, I...

I've always loved the story of the Selkie. It's a folklore tale that I think is so cool because I think it's best known for its origins in Scotland and other areas around there. But it was also a story that originated in Iceland and I think in Norway and Sweden as well. And in Alaska, interestingly, it's the same

there are native Alaskan groups that told the same story. So it's kind of the circumpolar folklore that like people all over the world before they were connected would tell the same story of people that turn into seals, seals that turn into people. And quite often it was women that would do this, especially in folklore. think there's so many examples of shape shifting women and.

I've always been, I've always really loved that. I've always been drawn to that. I think it's true for people of all genders, but especially for the feminine. I think there's something very true and very ancient about that animalistic side of people, of using that as a symbol and as a metaphor. And in my early 20s, I read,

Women Who Run With The Wolves by Clarissa Pinkala Estes, which became immediately one of my favorite books. And I actually pull a quote from that book for the epigraph of The Source of Storms. And every book in this series, they're all from that same book. But anyway, I really wanted to tell a story that pulled themes from all of those different shape shifting stories and just

explore what it would be like if those things were real, if women really were shapeshifters and how that would affect them and the people around them and how it would put them in community and at odds with other groups of people. So yeah, those were some big themes I wanted to look at.

Tina Koutras (18:13)
Very cool.

So, can you say her name again? How do you pronounce her name? Halja?

Angie (18:21)
hell yeah.

Tina Koutras (18:21)
Hell yeah. Okay.

She's your protagonist and she's marked by the sea and caught in a tide of war and ancient rivalries. Can you tell us more about her and the themes of identity and defiance that drive her story?

Angie (18:25)
Yes.

Yeah, I really love her character. Obviously spending three books writing about it. Yeah, she's obviously a very personal character, a very personal story to me.

I wanted her to be, I think there's this theme, especially with fantasy lately, that female protagonists are all already very strong and they're already very aggressive and they're already for some reason really good at fighting, which sometimes I'm like, what is the reason for that? Like we need a background to that, you And they tend to like have these,

Tina Koutras (19:11)
Yeah.

Angie (19:14)
attributes that are more, they're already angry and they're already violent and they can put those feelings into action right from the get-go. Which is fine and it's fun and sometimes it really fits the story. But I think for her, I wanted to start with this feeling of discontent, of knowing that she never really belonged where she was, but having no idea where she really belonged. And this feeling of having that kind of

like feminine rage, that very like old anger that she would feel and having no clue what to do with it. She was never, she doesn't know how to fight. She doesn't know how to do anything. She doesn't even know who she really is at the beginning of the story. So really for her, the journey is finding herself and finding her people and finding herself through the people that she finds who teach her that who she is is actually okay and that she's not wrong and she was never broken and there's nothing.

inherently bad or shameful about her and that she can have a life just exactly as she is without having to try to shape herself to the outside world.

Tina Koutras (20:22)
Wow, that's powerful.

Angie (20:25)
Thanks, I hope so.

Tina Koutras (20:25)
So the book has been described as dripping with feminine rage and romance. What does this combination mean to you and how does it shape the narrative?

Angie (20:36)
Hmm,

I think this might be a long-winded and derivative answer. I think that there's this division, as we all know, the world feels very divided right now, and I think there's a big division, especially between men and women. There's a lot of talk about the feminine and the masculine.

Tina Koutras (20:43)
That's okay.

Angie (21:01)
And I think we've gone through quite a period of the masculine being very demonized. Like anything masculine is labeled as toxic, even if it's not, even though there's a lot of good qualities that come with being masculine or, you know, masculine qualities. And yeah, I just think there's like, there's so much division between both men and women and the feminine and masculine that I kind of breaks my heart.

And for this book, really wanted Halia to be a very feminine character, but a very wildly feminine character. Like the kind of feminine in old folklore where it's more of like the embodiment of intuition and strength and qualities like that where it's not superficial, I suppose, is what I was looking for with her.

And I wanted to give her a match in that that was also masculine, like someone else who could embody more masculine traits, but not hyper masculine and not like toxically masculine that I think so many people, know, obviously that immediately turns people off, but yeah, I think there's a lot of good qualities to masculinity. And I wanted...

her to have a partner that had those qualities and then to find kind of a balance between the two of them rather than just... I suppose rather than her becoming very masculine and him becoming more feminine, I wanted to just see where I could find the balance of both qualities in both people. I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah, because, you know, I feel like every person, every character needs a balance of both.

Tina Koutras (22:33)
Okay.

No, it absolutely does for sure.

Angie (22:43)
Yeah, so I guess I wanted them both to be able to be who they were and form a good team rather than having to bend themselves to fit the other.

Tina Koutras (22:54)
Yeah, I love that. think that I do love that. I think I totally understand it in a very deep way because

Too often we compromise what we believe in or what we think or what we feel in favor of protecting a relationship or protecting the status quo instead of, I guess that's what I'm trying to get at is it's nice to see you striving to have the characters meet in the middle rather than compromise who they are.

Angie (23:25)
Yeah, I hope so. I hope that's what I did. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I wanted. I suppose that, I wanted to give her the space to really be who she was and explore her story and her sense of belonging and her journey and to have a really good supportive partner along the way without it overtaking her entire plot and her entire being, you know?

Tina Koutras (23:27)
Does that make sense?

Right, yeah. So creating an immersive world is no small task. What was your process for building the world for Source of Storms and how did you make it feel so alive and textured?

Angie (24:01)
well, thank you. I hope it does. I gotta say, I just spent a lot of time walking around and thinking, especially early days of this book. I went on a lot of hikes by myself and just really tried to picture every single place. I think often the scenes I would write would start with the setting, like

less so than the conflict. There's this very important place that evokes these emotions and what would happen in a place like this. So yeah, I started with a lot of that. And then...

It also kind of went the other way, where once I had had those building blocks and I knew what kind of world I wanted to build and what the general themes would be of the setting, there were other characters that came up that kind of created their own entire places, like the city of Avanis and the temple there. Those were entirely created because I had the high priestess as a character. I was like, well, if there's a woman that's like this, that is...

very different than everyone else that we've met so far. What kind of a place is she gonna live in? What is her temple gonna look like that she's built? How crazy or how grand is it gonna be to match her ego and her ideals that she walks around with? So yeah, I think it was a little of both. And then I tried to leave some things kind of open too.

There were places that I just alluded to and then I was like, I'll figure it out later. I am now in book two. I'm like, now I need to, what is this? What was I talking about? So it wasn't always the most organized, but I think, I hope it has worked out okay. I think it'll show really in book two if it does. So far it's going good.

Tina Koutras (25:32)
hahahaha

So,

so when you create, so your world specifically, is it very structured in your mind as you get to it or so that the expression is panther or plotter, which do you feel you are?

Angie (26:05)
for book one, definitely Pantsir. I was just like, I got all these people. They're gonna fight about something because they have to. Their ideals are in direct conflict, which honestly, like I know fantasy is not always very character driven, but I think the only way that I know so far how to write is character driven. So that's how I develop my plots is I take

couple different people that are very compelling characters and then put them in conflict. And then plot comes out of that. But yeah, for Book One, to get back to your question, Book One, I was definitely just pants in it. I was just. I had a few scenes and a few people and I knew what I wanted, the core themes of belonging and the wild feminine in the story. And then I just kind of let it rip. And then.

Tina Koutras (26:34)
Climb them together.

Angie (26:56)
around halfway through writing it. Actually, I don't even know. At some point in writing it, the plot for the rest of the series kind of materialized. Like I knew...

Roughly, I knew what the end of Haliah's story was gonna be, for sure. Kind of really right from the beginning. I knew where she was headed, which helped so much. I can't recommend that enough. If you can nail down your main character's end point right at the beginning, just the rest of plotting will be so much easier. So luckily I did that. And then, yeah, then...

By the time I was almost done with book one, I had a pretty solid outline for book two and a rough idea for book three. And then right after I put book one out, I sat down and really did my like detailed scene by scene breakdown for book two, filled in a more detailed outline for book three. So two and three are a lot more like actually plotter style. Yeah. Which I think is way more efficient and really nice.

Tina Koutras (27:49)
Structure. Yep. Yep. Yep.

Angie (27:55)
But yeah, I like having a mix of both. think keeping it really open and letting it flow, especially at the beginning, is really important.

Tina Koutras (28:02)
I think to some degree it happens regardless because you're always filling in all that connective tissue for one and then you just say something and you're like, that's really good. I'm going to go with that. And you know what mean? I think it doesn't matter how much of a plotter you are. I think there'll always be surprises in what starts and what roles because your mind is always going with those characters, I think.

Angie (28:15)
Yeah, absolutely. Yes.

Yeah,

absolutely. Or you mess up and you say something that doesn't make sense and then you're like, shit, I really want this to happen. Now I have to go back and make this make sense. Yeah. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (28:37)
Make it happen.

So many readers rave about the lyrical quality of your writing. Was that deliberate or is it just naturally flow out of you when you write?

Angie (28:49)
I think it's a combo of both. I've always liked that style. I like to make things kind of sound lyrical and poetic. But it definitely takes intentional effort, especially when you're writing really fast and you're just kind of ripping. Sometimes things don't come out that way. And then I have to go back and be like, you can't sound like a first grader. Like you have to...

Tina Koutras (29:10)
hahahaha

Angie (29:12)
use nicer words and make this good or no one's gonna wanna read it. But yeah, that's usually my goal is like, how can I put this in a way that is lyrical? you know, I don't know, just like pulling beauty out of the actual sentence by sentence structure of a story, I think is very important.

Tina Koutras (29:26)
Yeah,

yeah, sounds amazing. Epic fantasy often features big battles, heroes and quests, but your story seems more focused on the more intimate human themes. What drew you to this approach?

Angie (29:40)
I think mostly Hallya's character. I really wanted to, dig into her internal conflict and the themes of her belonging and coming of age and self discovery. And I really wanted to give that the room to breathe in the first book. I think the really awesome thing about writing a series is you get to spend so much time with the characters.

And yeah, she's really like very dominantly the main character in book one. It's really all about her. And I wanted to make sure that we saw her become who she is before she gets thrown into this crazy conflict. And there was a time.

for a while that I was actually thinking of putting a lot of this story of hers kind of just in her background and just letting it be something that I knew as her backstory, but didn't feature so much in the books. But obviously I didn't do that. I felt like it was important to show her whole story and her coming of age and for people to really know who she is. Yeah, so I wanted to give it more of that.

and give her the room to kind of go through her whole self-discovery. And then it also makes, feel like it adds so much more weight to the epic part of epic fantasy. When you really get into the battles and the big conflict and shit really hits the fan, you really know these characters and you really care about them. And yeah, it adds a lot more, a lot heavier stakes. Cause you're like, gosh, like this person might, you know,

Tina Koutras (31:12)
Yes, yeah.

Angie (31:16)
if they're really courageous and they do dumb stuff and suddenly they're in middle of a battle, you're like, oh God, they're gonna die. They take too many risks, I already know it's coming, know? So things like that. yeah, so I think book one really has that slower start and then, man, I'm really excited for book two though. It gets a lot more into the epic of epic fantasy, which I'm very excited about.

Tina Koutras (31:40)
Awesome. So you've mentioned that your book challenges some of the common tropes in fantasy romance. What are some of those and why did you feel it was important to reimagine them?

Angie (31:51)
Yeah,

I gotta say, I'm not so sure that it challenges them as much as just doesn't do them. I don't know what the difference is there. Because I feel like I didn't want to take any of them and flip the actual trope and just do it differently. I kind of just wanted to start with a completely different trope. And I also, maybe this is because I wasn't.

Tina Koutras (32:00)
Hahaha!

Hey!

Angie (32:19)
a huge part of like the book world, or like the online book scene. Like I didn't really follow any bookstagram pages. I have a couple friends that I talk to books, talk to books, a couple friends that I talked with about books. But I think breaking things down trope wise wasn't a big thing in my mind at all when I started writing. Like I didn't want to write to a checklist.

Tina Koutras (32:30)
Hahaha.

Checkboxes.

Yeah, yeah.

Angie (32:44)
Yes, exactly. I wasn't

like, it's going to be enemies to lovers and it's going to be found family. And like it is found family. That's a big trope, which I love. And it's in there for sure. but I didn't really go into it with that mindset of thing. Like these are the tropes I want to hit and the way I want to build the story. It was just, this is the story I want to tell. And then when I went to pitch that to agents, it's like, what is this? What is this story I've created? I don't know which of these tropes it even fits into.

so maybe that was an accident. I was just not knowing what I was doing. but yeah, I guess I wanted it to be different. think maybe, I don't know if this is true. It feels like in fantasy romance right now, we're getting a whole lot of the same story over and over again. And some of those are really fun. And sometimes the same trope repeatedly is still a good time, but sometimes

you kind of beat it to death. I'm a little worried that that might be what's happening. So I didn't want to do the classic enemies to lovers. Partially because I felt like it was overdone and also because it's so heavily done, I was like, I don't think I can compete with this. Like, there's already so many great stories out there with that trope. Yeah. And it's like, don't know. I just don't know if I will compare. So.

Tina Koutras (33:54)
Really good books, yeah.

I like that

view. like that. I think I can totally get behind that perspective that, I think to some degree I relate in that when I set out writing mine, it was kind of with the same sort of, I don't want to use the word ignorance, like blind perspective towards Instagram. ⁓ And I hadn't really

Angie (34:22)
Yeah.

Tina Koutras (34:24)
followed a lot of the tropes and I learned the tropes as we built our candle business, but the book was already kind of swinging into motion at that point. And I never really thought, well, what tropes am I going to cover? You know what mean? So I think I totally get what you're getting at when you say that, that it was, you wanted to tell a story. It wasn't necessarily about blank.

Angie (34:37)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Totally. Did you have a hard time fitting it into those boxes after the fact when you had to like describe it? ⁓ you're not done. nice. That's awesome.

Tina Koutras (34:53)
I'm not done it yet, so I'll let you know. It's still growing and building and

yeah. So it's, I mean, I'm more than halfway done my first draft, so building still. Yeah, but I totally agree with you that it's sometimes it's more about telling the story than figuring out what parts of it you're gonna put into it. Yeah.

Angie (35:06)
Amazing. Ugh, that's so fun.

Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. And it

can be, it can get really overwhelming or kind of like cloud, I don't know. I think being too aware of what everyone else is doing and what all the popular tropes are and yeah, checking all the boxes can really cloud your direction, especially when you're first starting.

Tina Koutras (35:35)
I think like, I love the way people review on Instagram because they tell you what tropes are in books because I honestly, when I read a book, I'm just reading page by page and enjoying the moments. And a lot of times I find myself, that trope was in there. I'm like, yeah, it was in there. I mean, some, yeah, yeah. Like one bad I didn't know was a trope until somebody mentioned it.

Angie (35:53)
Yeah. Or things that I didn't even know were tropes. Yes. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (36:01)
Now we have a candle for it, but that's beside the point.

Angie (36:02)
Yeah,

I love that. did do, I suppose that's one thing that I intentionally did because I found out I did. I also didn't know that one bit I was like, I guess it is. That makes sense. But I didn't know that one bed was a thing. And then after I found that out, I intentionally put a scene in my book where there is one bed, but it was completely her choice. She she booked one room and has one bed. That's the choice she made. And she knew what she was doing.

Tina Koutras (36:23)
Hehehehehe

That's awesome.

Angie (36:32)
It's very subtle. I don't even know

if anyone's gonna catch it as that, but there's a moment where he walks in and he's like, I can get another room. And she just says, nope. No, you don't have to. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (36:40)
I did this on purpose.

That's cool. Do you feel a responsibility as a writer to expand representation in fantasy and romance?

Angie (36:51)
Yeah, I like this question. I think about it a lot, a lot, lot, especially now that I'm more, I never used to think about it so much when I wasn't in the internet world of books. But now I feel like it's obviously a huge topic of conversation online that I see a lot about. Yeah, think anyone, writers, anyone in any position of power has a responsibility to...

try to improve the diversity and representation in anything they're doing.

I think with this first book, there's not a whole lot of that that I did, which is I think is all right. I really wanted to tell a very personal, very personal, very, yeah, very personal story with this first one that reflects more of my experiences. So.

the characters in it are a lot more like me, not all of them, but a lot of them. And also the folklore that I was leaning on and the settings that I was leaning on historically are predominantly white. And I think that...

It can be really tempting when you're writing anything to...

not to co-opt diversity. What I'm trying to say is I think it's really important that writers of different cultures and different races be given the space to tell their own stories. especially in something with fantasy, fantasy is almost always based on mythology or on folklore from different cultures. And there can be a temptation, I think, for people to outstep the bounds of their own stories to tell.

with the intention of just creating a new story, which like, I understand that for sure.

But yeah, I think it's important that different writers be given the space to tell their own stories. Like for example, I think if I tried to sit down and write a story from the perspective of a black man, I would not do a good job. And then I would just be taking away the space to tell that story for a black writer. So that's not really ever something that I want to try to do. But I also think there are a lot of different ways to do diversity.

recently read The Priory of the Orange Tree, which is now by far one of my favorite fantasy books. It's amazing. And I think she really nails the way that she does diversity in that book. you read it? my God. I was wondering if that's what you're doing. The Priory of the Orange Tree. And it's amazing. And what she does is so brilliant. She has such a diverse cast.

Tina Koutras (39:07)
Now I'm writing it down. What did you say it was called? The Priory of an Orange Tree?

Okay, keep going.

Angie (39:22)
diverse cast of characters. And she has all of these different cultures. It's a very big world. It's a huge world. The premise of it is that it's divided between East and West, and it very much reflects the cultures of our real world, East and West. And there's a whole lot of different folks of all different races and different orientations. And it plays into the story in that they're all from these different cultures, but it's never a source of like,

It doesn't matter so much. Like it's a source of conflict in that their religions and their cultures are in conflict, but the people themselves, it doesn't really come up as like a problem to the actual characters, I suppose. Which I really love. I think that's such a great, a brilliant way to do it. And she has this little blurb at the beginning that says like, something like all of the places and cultures in this book are based on real ones, but they're not supposed to represent any specific thing.

from a specific culture so that you don't like latch onto it and be like, hey, this was actually wrong for this, like, because it could be anything. So anyway, I think that's one of the powers of fantasy is you can do that. You can represent a whole lot of different people and a whole lot of different cultures and a lot of different myths and stories. It's like, you can kind of break the rules. It's fantasy. And I think that's really great.

Tina Koutras (40:23)
Right.

Yeah,

it can be rooted but not necessarily cast in something. Yeah, exactly.

Angie (40:42)
Yes, exactly, exactly. And I

think it's, I don't know, I see a lot of stuff, maybe it's more on like TikTok or whatever. I see stuff getting mad about like the way that different characters are written or the choices made for different characters. And I think that can...

backfire in some ways. I think that there, if you get too wrapped up about like what the specific character did of this specific race, yeah, obviously we shouldn't have like racist stereotypes or anything like that for sure. But we also don't want to push writers away from including diversity in their stories. And we don't want to make people afraid to do that because then you end up with the exact same problem.

Tina Koutras (41:16)
Right.

Angie (41:21)
like a fully white cast or like whatever it is, you know? So we don't want that either. So yeah, I think it's a fine line to walk, especially as a white author to tell enough stories with enough diversity without overstepping into a realm that isn't mine and a culture that isn't mine. Yeah. So yeah, book one, there's not as much of it because I'm...

Tina Koutras (41:22)
Yeah. Yeah.

Angie (41:43)
telling the story of a white woman who very much reflects a lot more of my own personal experiences and the place that I came from. it gets, book two gets a little bit more into a slightly more diverse cast. And I hope with my future books, now that I've more so told a very personal story that's really on my own heart and of my own background, I can start to branch out more, know, kind of follow.

Samantha Shannon's lead and build some more diverse worlds and make them little bigger.

Tina Koutras (42:12)
Beautiful. So your fans often describe your writing as fresh, wild, and deeply emotional. Do you have any favorite reader reactions or reviews that have really stayed with you?

Angie (42:24)
Yeah, it's such a lovely question. I do. I think one of my favorite things that I've seen people say is that it does feel really different from other fantasy romance. I think one reason is because it's not super heavy on the romance. And I think a lot more of fantasy romance is more in the romance genre, which is great. It's just not exactly what I did. I think I'm not a huge romance reader, so it didn't happen.

as much in this book for me. But yeah, I'm happy that people find it to be different and to feel like kind of a fresh take and a different story. I wanted it to really feel like me and feel different and personal. Yeah, people have been so sweet. It's so crazy. Doing something like this and getting rejected by a ton of agents and then choosing to publish it yourself.

Tina Koutras (42:50)
Yeah. Yep.

Angie (43:15)
is so scary because at no point does anybody tell you that it's good enough. In fact, all you get are like hundred rejections that say it's not good enough. And then you're like, well, I'm gonna fucking do it anyway. like, first see what happens. So it's terrifying. Cause I'm like, what if this really sucks and everyone hates it and this whole dream just goes up in flames. So far that has not happened. And I've had some really lovely, really lovely responses.

Just the other day I had this woman message me on Instagram that, man, she said a lot of really sweet stuff, but she was just like really captured by it and really connected with it. And she said something along the lines of, she was like, I know as a fellow artist how hard this is and how terrifying it is to make something so personal and so real and let the whole world.

rip it apart if they want to. And she was like, that's gonna make me tear up. She was like, no matter what people say, and no matter what happens, no matter what kind of reviews you get, she's like, this book changed my life and like completely connected to me. And she's like, I loved it. I'm floored. This is amazing. She was like, just remember that. Like you touched one person with this and that's all that matters. And it's just like, wow.

Tina Koutras (44:15)
Yeah.

That's amazing.

Angie (44:38)
Yeah, like I'll take any negative review after that. Like she's right. But yeah, overwhelmingly it's been positive. Thank you.

Tina Koutras (44:42)
So it's beautiful.

I love the

people who reach out with such positive statements. Like I've heard of a trend where, you know, people tag the author in not so pleasant reviews. And I find that tactic to be very tacky. When somebody actually DMs you to come right out and say that, you know,

Angie (44:50)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Tina Koutras (45:08)
Don't ever pay attention to the naysayers because you made such an impact on my life. That's such an incredible thing to do. It's the polar opposite and it has that polar opposite effect on the writer for sure. ⁓

Angie (45:16)
It was so sweet.

Absolutely. Man, I didn't know

people were tagging authors in negative. Like, why? Why? What is the point?

Tina Koutras (45:25)
Yeah, I've seen a

few people that are standing up for the authors and saying that it's not a very appropriate thing to do. So hopefully that trend has passed. Yeah.

Angie (45:35)
Seriously. Yeah,

I mean, say what you want. That's fine. I think every author who puts their book out there knows that's what they're in for. And it comes for us all eventually. But like, at least give us the at least give us the ability to not read it. Let me ignore it in peace.

Tina Koutras (45:42)
Yeah.

Hahaha

Angie (45:50)
Yeah, for sure.

Tina Koutras (45:52)
As an indie author, how do the connections with your readers help shape your career?

Like have you gotten a review before and you're like, yep, that was my fuel to write today. I'm going to write.

Angie (46:03)
Yeah,

definitely. think as an indie author, that's all you have. It's really all you have. it's, you have, like I mentioned before, you have no one else in the industry telling you to keep going. You have no one else putting any money into this, but you have no support. I mean, you have your friends and family, but like, as far as people actually in the book world, very few people are gonna support you. And it can be...

Tina Koutras (46:08)
Yeah. ⁓

Angie (46:28)
really scary and really challenging and really expensive. I think people that don't publish books don't understand how much goes in on the production end. Yeah, so I think having connections like that with people is really all you have. And it's the only thing that keeps you going. Like if I didn't have people actually telling me they were reading my books and enjoying it, I would probably quit. I would keep writing, but I would quit publishing.

Tina Koutras (46:38)
Yeah.

Hahaha.

Angie (46:55)
Cause like, yeah, you don't make any money. Not for a long time. I mean, they say it takes five to seven books to really get into it as an indie author. Less if you're lucky, more if you're not. Like it's a long haul and it's definitely a marathon. And there's a lot of days or weeks or even months of very little sales. it's...

It's really scary. It kind of feels like you're walking a tightrope a lot of the time. yeah, I think those connections with readers are really huge. It's really the only thing that keeps you going when it's feeling like that, especially when you're starting out. And it's one thing that like is so awesome about being an indie author. It's like people can just reach out to you and you can just message people and be like, hey, do you want to read my book? And then you get really excited, which is really cool.

Like I've had a few people that I've sent it to. It's really scary for me, but I'll just like cold, cold message DM, book, Instagram accounts sometimes and be like, Hey, I'll send you this if you want to like read it, review it. And, it's really cool when they get really into it and get really excited. And like, I have a few people that have just become like really sweet, supportive friends because I've done that. And it's really awesome.

Tina Koutras (48:08)
Yeah,

I think I can relate because when we first started to progress with candelore, we did the same thing, but with our candles, reaching out to people who had a stake in the types of candles that we made and said, hey, can we send you a candle? And it's the same type. It's not quite the same vulnerability, I don't think, but it is. It's, you know.

you're either going to fly or fall flat on your face. It's the same sort of thing. So I can definitely write and I do know that I'm bound for the same journey and I know I'm going to be going through that same process at some point. So I definitely appreciate the, not the words of caution, but words of awareness, I suppose. You don't want to be going into it blindly.

Angie (48:30)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yes.

Yes. Yeah.

Totally, yeah, but it'll be good. You'll have a lot of positive interactions, especially because you already have so many connections in that world. think people are gonna be really excited.

Tina Koutras (49:02)
I'm just having fun. Honestly, this ink and flame kind of came out of our love of reading and connecting with the authors is part of the steam effect. talking with a lot of the authors and hearing their journeys and understanding processes and things like that. A lot of that is part of what keeps me going. I find it very inspiring.

Angie (49:28)
good, that's awesome. Yeah, and it's, I mean, it's really fun for me and I'm sure for all

like, I don't know. I never would have thought, it's so funny when you're just like in your little writing cave in your own head for months and months and then this insane daydream that you had is something people can read and they're like, wow, I really connect with this. And you're like, cool, I'm not just like completely whack.

Tina Koutras (49:39)
Yeah.

So let's have a few fun questions. If you had to bring one of your characters from The Source of Storms into the real world to go hiking or camping with, who would you pick and why?

Angie (50:00)
Oh man, um, I was kind of tempted to say beer gear just cause you know, he's the big hot love interest. Um, but I like to be honest, it'd be way too intimidated to hang out with him. And, uh, I'm very happily engaged and really just love hanging out with my fiance all the time. So I think I would actually, I, it's kind of a boring answer. I think I'd just pick Halia. I think we'd have a lot to chat about and I think she's so cool.

Tina Koutras (50:11)
Hahaha!

Angie (50:28)
I love her so much, I would just be so stoked to hang out with her for a while.

Tina Koutras (50:32)
Do think you'd butt heads at all?

Angie (50:34)
Probably because we're so similar. Yeah. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (50:36)
That's what I was wondering because you said that a lot

of this is based a lot of on you. So I guess that begs the question, is he a lot like your fiance?

Angie (50:42)
Yeah.

Yes. yeah. It's so funny.

He was reading it. He didn't read it until after or he didn't finish it until after it came out. And there are jokes. I hid inside jokes in there that are only he will get, which is a really fun thing you get to do as a writer that feels like a sneaky little joke. That's just for you because it is. there were a couple of those. And actually one of his friends who was

really stoked about the book too, he so sweet. He took a photo of the line and highlighted it, one of them, and sent it to my fiance. And was like, I can really see your influence in this book. I was like, yeah. It was between him and his friend group and that course. Yeah, they got it. And I was just like, yes, Josh caught it.

Tina Koutras (51:25)
So maybe not so inside joke. Inner circle. ⁓

That's funny.

Angie (51:39)
But yeah, I asked him, was like, is

it weird for you to like see this, these things? And he was like, not really, but like, I can tell that you definitely were living with me while you wrote this. And I was like, yeah, you like really influenced, you you really inspired this character. And he was like, I know. It's like, no, it's cute. You're like the main male hero of the story. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (52:01)
I

think every man needs to hear that.

Angie (52:04)
Yeah, it's like what?

You're my greatest fantasy.

Yeah.

Tina Koutras (52:10)
So growing up in Alaska surrounded by both the mountains and the sea is basically living in two great fantasy settings which would Hallya prefer.

Angie (52:20)
Hmm. The really nice thing about where I grew up on the coast is that it's both and you don't have to choose because it is just mountains straight into the ocean. think for her, probably changes. Actually, this is like not a spoiler, a little sneak peek for Book 2. Book 1, I would say she'd probably choose the mountains. Book 2, I think she'd choose the ocean. So it gets a lot more into a little more into the ocean setting in Book 2.

Tina Koutras (52:26)
Haha.

Okay.

Angie (52:44)
which I think is fun.

Tina Koutras (52:45)
For you, this is completely my own sheer need to know, what is the best month of being in Alaska, the best month of the year to see that place?

Angie (52:50)
You

⁓

Probably June or July. It depends on where you're going. If you're going to be south central on the coast, I'd say June, July. It rains a lot. So that would be a good shot. And then once you get into August, it's like fall already and gets stormy again. Yeah, it's quick. It's quick. Because I'm sure you know where you are too. It happens fast. Yeah, if you want like the really

super long days like midnight sun. June's really awesome. If you want the northern lights though, I would say yeah, really, really deep winter. Go for those really long nights around January or something. Yeah. Yes, yeah, seriously. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (53:34)
the wind.

Yeah.

Yeah, as long as you have a really warm blanket.

Finally, what can fans expect from you next? So you've got the two books and the Hopper. How far are you in those progresses?

Angie (53:57)
I'm so excited about this question. I'm so close to being done with the first draft of book two. It's crazy. yeah. So book two will be next. I think it's going to be soon. I can't say I've chosen a title. It's going to be called the binds of blood, which I'm stoked about. yeah, I'm nearing the end. Actually just before this, I was almost late cause I was writing.

Tina Koutras (54:00)
Hahaha!

Angie (54:23)
some of the final chapters of book two and I've been I've been putting them off for like two weeks because it's I know like I have it all blocked out and I know what needs to happen and it's So stressful I could barely I could barely get through what I needed to write and then I was just getting really into these extremely intense scenes and I don't know

I should have been wearing one of those like exercise pulse monitors because I'm pretty sure my heart rate was just like way up here the whole time today. And I was like, I have to go do this. Yeah. So that's that's what's next. I'm really excited for that. I think it's going really good. It's flying along. I think it's going to be. I hope it's going to be really good. I think it. I give a lot more space to other characters in the book and in book two.

which I'm really excited about finally getting into their stories more. So that's going to be cool. I'm hoping if I'm lucky and very organized that I will be able to release it in the fall. But I think I can get it done, get it out by the end of this year. So that's that plan. I will be... I don't know how long I'm going to take to do this actually, but it won't be too long till I'll be looking for arc readers. So if anyone's interested in that...

I'll be posting about that in the coming couple months probably. But yeah, that's the next big thing is just get number two out and keep it rolling. Yeah.

Tina Koutras (55:40)
Nice.

Awesome. So

I'll actually tell you what got my attention because I'm not sure if you realize you posted an image of you, well, it was a video of you typing at your computer. It was from the camera's perspective looking at you and you just showed it in all the different states, whatever day it was, just you, do you remember that post?

Angie (56:11)
Yeah.

Tina Koutras (56:11)
So I saw that post, I'm like, this is an awesome post. It totally grabbed my attention. And then I obviously went into your profile and took a look at what your book was about and got very interested. But I just wanted to tell you what really grabbed my attention was just showing you, showing you, showing me the raw, everyday grind. I loved that post. I thought it was amazing.

Angie (56:35)
Oh, that's awesome. Oh, thank you.

Tina Koutras (56:39)
So go ahead, sorry.

Angie (56:40)
Thanks. I. Oh, I was just gonna say I like sometimes I get so in my head about everything, but especially about what I post on Instagram. And there's so many times I'm like, no one cares. No one's going to want to see this is stupid. And then I do it and people are like, well, this is so great. I'm like, all right. I guess I just truly you never know. Like, yeah. Yeah. Just kind of put it out there.

Tina Koutras (56:54)
you

It's the lottery, it really is. Yeah,

exactly. So where can people find you easiest on social?

Angie (57:09)
Instagram is the best one. My handle is angie.inthewilds just to make it confusing because I didn't want to change it. So Instagram is a good one. I'm sometimes on TikTok. I think my handle is author Angelina Kelly. TikTok scares and overwhelms me so I don't...

Tina Koutras (57:19)
Hahaha!

Angie (57:31)
do it that much but I do post on there sometimes. actually wait never mind. I can't I can't say I was gonna say I'm doing giveaway but it'll be over by then. Yeah I was like I should have timed that better. well there'll be more. I'm always trying to get it out there to people so there'll be more. But yeah those are those are kind of my only two I think.

Tina Koutras (57:36)
Okay.

by the time the post is, or by the time this is, yeah, you're right. ⁓

Well, we could definitely. OK.

Do you want to show off your book and show people what they are looking for to find you?

Angie (57:59)
my gosh.

Yes, my beautiful cover. It's backwards, but... Thank you. Yeah, the back's nice. The little mountains. The Northern Lights. She did a great job. I love the spine too. Bink. Yeah, I really love it.

Tina Koutras (58:03)
I love the cover.

It's gorgeous. Yeah.

Yeah, very, very

beautiful imagery.

Angie (58:17)
She did great. I'm so excited to see what she comes up with for this next one.

Tina Koutras (58:22)
I'm sure see a cover reveal at some point on your social.

Angie (58:26)
Yes, as soon as soon as it's done. It'll be, I don't know. That'll be a while, I guess. She, I guess I have to like be patient. I have to give her time to finish it. So it'll probably be at least like six weeks or a couple of months, but it'll come.

Tina Koutras (58:40)
So

what is, where are your books available?

Angie (58:43)
great question. I need to remember to say this. They are on Amazon. It's in Kindle Unlimited right now. So that's the only place you can get the ebook is on Amazon because of Kindle Select. Yeah, Amazon, you can get the Kindle version and the paperback. The paperback is also available on Barnes and Noble for people in the US.

I think that's it. I think that is all. I'm going to put them, I'm going to make them available directly through my website after book two comes out because I just have to, everything takes money. Everything takes so much money. So I just have to upgrade my website so that I can run Shopify and then pay for that. But as soon as all that's organized, everything will be paperbacks at least will be up on there too. My website.

Tina Koutras (59:18)
you

available there. Nice.

Awesome. All right. It was absolutely exciting talking with you, Angelina. I was very excited for tonight because, well, partly because I would love to see Alaska and getting to hear it from your perspective is amazing. So I'm very excited to read this book. I think that it would be an awesome one on my shelf.

Angie (59:42)
⁓

Tina Koutras (59:53)
So I'll be hopping on Amazon to grab my own copy by the end of the evening. So now I should definitely support you. Yes, absolutely. I think that, I think it's incredible and I really enjoy the opportunity to talk with you, fellow Canadian, and seeing how things worked for you and everything that you've done so far. And I look forward to.

Angie (59:59)
I should just send you one. Are you sure? Okay. I appreciate it.

Tina Koutras (1:00:18)
hearing more about it.

Angie (1:00:20)
Aw, thank you so much, I really appreciate it. This has been so fun. It's so nice to be on here with you.

Tina Koutras (1:00:23)
Awesome.

Yeah, thank you for joining me tonight. I appreciate it.

Angie (1:00:27)
Thank you so

much. I appreciate it. It means a lot. It's tough to make it as an indie author and everything really helps. So I appreciate it.

Tina Koutras (1:00:36)
Awesome.